Awhile back in one of the myriad threads about the Dwemer, which, unfortunately, I could not find, Luagar noticed that in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_defeat.shtml Vivec at one point refers to Dagoth Ur as Kagrenac. Specifically in the section "Employing Kagrenac's Tools against Dagoth Ur":

"Our plan to destroy Dagoth Ur also runs the risk of destroying the Tribunal. The plan is to permanently disrupt Kagrenac's enchantments upon the Heart, severing connections with Dagoth Ur and ourselves, and rendering us all once again mortal. A mortal Kagrenac may then be destroyed by mundane means. The loss of godhood and the possible death of the Tribunal are judged a necessary risk and sacrifice."

I think most people, including myself, upon being made aware of this disregarded it as a typo. Having recently re-read the 36 Lessons of Vivec, however, I think the issue might be worth further exploration.

I observe that in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_plan.shtml, the first point in the section "Objectives," contains a parenthetical note:

"Dagoth Ur has apparently adopted the views and motivations of the Dwemer High Craftlord Kagrenac. In effect, he recapitulates the ancient blasphemous folly of the Dwemer."

Here Vivec Clearly draws a parallel between Dagoth Ur and Kagrenac. What is striking, to me, is how specious this parallel seems to be. From what we know of their respective projects, Kagrenac's plans for the Heart and Numidium were very different from Dagoth Ur's plans for the Heart and Akulakhan. According to the recieved accounts, Dagoth Ur claimed that Kagrenac was building Numidium as a weapon against the Chimer. It is possible that upon preparing the document Vivec still believed Dagoth Ur's account of Kagrenac's intentions, but it seems strange that Vivec would continue to believe the one whom he explicitly calls a deciever. Of course, I do not think Vivec ever managed to really understand the Dwemer, or Kagrenac.

Finally, I turn to the 36 Lessons of Vivec. I have long thought that the 3 Lessons for Ruling Kings, and other related sections, have (at least) two layers of meaning. On the one hand they are about Vivec's interactions with Indoril Nerevar - though most likely a highly edited account so as to make Vivec appear the wise teacher, and Nerevar the eager but foolhardy apprentice. On the other hand, they are messages, advise, and instructions to the Nerevarine.

In contrast, I had always, without much effort at justification, read the sections about the Sharmat as a reference to Dagoth Ur only. However, I am now tempted to think there might be something in reading the relevant sections (specifically sermons http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#13, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#15, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#17, and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#36) in a similar way as I had read the others: as being abou both Dagoth Ur and Kagrenac, only on two different levels. (I seem to recall that the Sharmat has been linked to Kagrenac before, but I cannot remember who suggested it.)

Notice that in sermon 36 Vivec refers to "Kagrenac the Blighter" - clearly drawing a parallel between Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur. Later another passage links the blight to the Dwemer: "Resdaynia was no more. It had been redeemed of all the iniquities of the foolish. The ALMSIVI drew nets from the Beginning Place and captured the ash of Red Mountain, which they knew was the Blight of the Dwemer and that would serve only to infect the whole of the middle world, and ate it. ALTADOON DUNMERI!"

In the same sermon, we find the line "Red Mountain exploded as the Hortator went too far inside, seeking the Sharmat," is immediately followed by "Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea." Recieved accounts of the event confirm that Nerevar went into Red Mountain in search of Dagoth Ur, which is consistent with interpreting Sharmat as refering to Dagoth. Yet the fact that Kagrenac appears in the next line is highly suggestive - as if Nerevar went looking for Dagoth and found Kagrenac.

This suggests to me that the line in Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur is not to be disregarded as a typo. It seems that Vivec concieves of Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur as very similar, if not parallel figures. However diverse their characters may be, as far as Vivec is concerned they play the same metaphorical-mythical role. Both are the Sharmat.

I think the typo is a typo. The Tribunal used very plain language, in their plans to deafeat Dagoth Ur. Vivec essentially laid the same trap twice: he manipulated Dagoth Ur and the Dwemer into an inevitable confrontation with Nerevar, the one Vivec delegated duties of savior to. So, I do believe the events are parallel.

Dagon Bal Malacath Sheogorath
Rourk Kagrenac Dumalacath Yagrum
Ayem Seht Vehk Nerevar (and his equivalent)
Boethiah Azura Mephala Mora
Hadhuul Umaril Maztiak Haymon

Progression toward Numantia?

Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc

Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu falls, "Rock Around the Clock"

4 corners of the house of troubles.
Rourken clan, Kagrenac, Dumac half-orc, Yagrum
ALMSIVI, their champion, (and I'm not sure)
Anticipations plus hermeaus Mora
Merish enemies of men.

I still miss the point.

Dramatis personae: the betrayers, the missing (and his equivalent, the sharmat, whose foundation is falling rock)

I see it. Except for Rourken.

Boethiah backwards

I still like to maintain that its a subconscious slip on Vivec's part, rather than a error on the devs.

Were Kagrenac's and Dagoth Ur's plans for the Heart & Numidium/Akulakhan really that different?

The Dwemer knew the secret of the world and they had experienced the dreamsleeve, as can be seen through their use of 'the Calling', which we know at its essence is an exploitation of the dreamsleeve/'the I'. Dagoth Ur similarly knew the secret of the world and had experienced the dreamsleeve, as can be seen through the 'divine dreamworld' (ie, "He is All Things"). I'd argue that both Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur had an experience of the godhead and were trying to recreate it in literal form - Kagrenac by way of anti-creation in combining the Dwemer into one being, Dagoth Ur through molding the world into a form which was "in his flesh, and of his flesh." Kagrenac stopped his unification goals with his race, Dagoth Ur planned on spreading his throughout all of Nirn in the form of Corprus.

The difference is only in the details.

I believe that I agree with you.
The way tha I see it the heresies of both Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur both arise from a distorted to benefit the race(s) They bothe wish to tap the power of the Heart of LorKhan and the tools to create a god that will bless creation. There were controversies here even among the Dwemer which are discussed in the ancient Dwemer texts The Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics.
The heresy seems IMO that the creature is somehow equal (or superior to...) the creator. What are the risks of mortals attempting the order of creation especially on the scale of constructing a Numidium (a new god?)

The Mer view Lorkhan as evil basically (consistent with Aldmeri belief) for separating a mortal plane from the spiritual plane.
Men tend to see Lorkhan as a (Promethean) ally. For example the Nords (from Varieties of Faith in the Empire);
Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan, who takes sides with Men after the creation of the world. Foreign gods (i.e., Elven ones) conspire against him and bring about his defeat, dooming him to the underworld. Atmoran myths depict him as a bloodthirsty warrior king who leads the Nords to victory over their Aldmeri oppressors time and again. Before his doom, Shor was the chief of the gods. Sometimes also called Children's God

In either case, I believe that both men and mer believe that the attempt to assume the power of a god can only corrupt and ultimately destroy those who would try.

And yet the Mer just keep trying.

Men seem to pretty much use mantling, which the result shows higher rates of godhood without the problem of going completely bonkers and corrupt (Sheogorath doesn't count). The mer are the ones with this use heart of a god nonsense. Hell, I don't even think the nords really wanted to do anything with the heart, just keep it somewhere in their hands so they can give praise to Shor more directly.

Men tend to do it inadvertently on an individual basis. For Mer it is a racial obsession, and they don't feel like settling for an imitation. They all want to be gods in the fullest sense of the term, and the only way to do that is to destroy mortal existence.

Men and Mer want the same thing: a better world. We know their concept of the 'better world' are shared, since their struggle always converges at one point: Nirn. Whether you believe one wants to destroy Nirn is entirely your interpretation.

When Lorkhan comes again, he won't come to rescue Men or Mer, but everyone.

I'm sad so many take a point of view.

D'aaw, you make me all warm and fuzzy inside :touched:

But surely a better world is one where we have sweet powers and anything is possible?

P.S. I have no idea if you're kidding. I don't even know if *I* am kidding.

While I agree with the tendency of your post, I think some more differentiation would be more accurate. I don't agree much with the "destroy" bit, but that's entirely a term of wording: I'd rather say that they try to change the status quo = current state of (sub-)creation = into an entirely different state (well, you could say "they destroy the status quo"... ). Men try to improve themselves, to take the status quo and develop from there on an individual basis. The Chimer and later the Dunmer under the teachings of the Tribunal do likewise. The Altmer seem to want to revert the status quo, to go back to a state before creation (and thus be one with their god(s)). The Dwemer - well they're hard to understand - but they negated creation ("we'd rather not ... anything"). I think the rest of the races are in between those extremes.

The Altmer want to restore the stasis of old. This likely seems senseless to the Nords, who have Kalpic mythos.

The dunmer are tricky. Originally the Chimer, under the guidance of Veloth, intended to proceed further down the path initiated by Lorkhan (the opposite of the Aldmer). This procession came to be called the Psijic Endeavor. The radical change involved with breaking from the Aldmer view invoked the Daedra, (some of) which gained an important place in Chimeri mythos.

The rise of the Tribunal effectively meant that the role of Daedra in Chimer/Dunmer religion was antiquated, or at least relegated to a lesser role. The Tribunal (especially Vivec) came to concieve of themselves as the new prostelyzers of the Psijic Endeavor. (Note that the "gradients" of the loveletter are foreshadowed in Vehk's Teachings).

I'm under the impression that the linear and cyclical views of Aurbis are not really contradictory, but different ways of representing the same thing, and which emphasize different aspects of that truth. The Nordic view is cyclical, meaning even the supposed statis of the Dawn is really a segment of the changing turning of the wheel of mythic time. The Altmer view is linear, because they single out a certain segment as an origin and a goal, and so for them going forwards means going backwards. The Dunmer have a goal too, but it is progressive (though it seems that for most Dunmer the striving towards the Psijic Endeavor ebbed as they grew accustomed to the Tribunal religion).

The Dwemer seem to have gone in a different route entirely - it is no wonder the Chimer found them so strange: blasphemous. Apparently Kagrenac had a (true? false?) insight about the nature of the Heart of Lorkhan and used it uncreate/unify his people. Later, Dagoth Ur too would use the Heart to pursue his own conception of how reality should be shaped. Vivec must see the goals of Kagrenac and Dagoth Ur as being opposed to his own.

And, as you said, the Nords take the Altmeri point of view to its next logical assertion: time must be cyclical.

See, the worlds they want - in a lacking sense - are really the same.