http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1109115-tracking-dishonorable-kills-murders/ wonderful idea for a kill-style tracker by Demolishun has resurrected a series of thoughts I've had regarding combat. Below is an outline for a system I imagine would enrich the moral aspects of player choice.

• Hail: A keystroke allows the PC to yell out, "Hail!" This would register in the game as a noise that would alert the attention of any NPCs within hearing radius. The idea is to enable the PC to test the disposition of NPCs while still at a distance - giving them a chance to initiate dialogue before combat.
  
• Parlay: Raiders, bandits, etc., instead of being automatically hostile would have a % chance of going hostile upon detection of the PC OR of initiating Parlay. Parlay would be a dialogue interface in which the NPCs would size up the PCs level in relationship to their own and correspondingly demand some amount of payment or loot for safe passage OR offer money or loot in exchange for their own lives OR suggest a mutual parting of ways. The PC could accept or reject any such offer. The amount of gold/loot demanded or offered would be defined as some vaule within a percentage range of total value of loot and gold carried by PC or NPC. When encountering a group of potentially hostile NPCs, this would probably have to work by having a defined leader of the group from which the other members take their disposition.
  
• Yield: A pop-up dialogue that interupts combat. An individual NPC (This mechanic would only initiate if the PC and the one NPC were the only combatants.) would offer to yield and give up gold/loot under certain combat situations: health or magicka drops to a defined percentage of total, runs out of buff potions and scrolls, lost weapon. In addition, a keystroke would initiate yield on the part of the PC. PC yield could be accepted or rejected by the NPC, chosen by a ratio of level: level or remaining health: remaining health. If yield is rejected, the pop-up disappears and combat resumes. If PC yield is accepted, Parlay begins and the NPC demands loot and/or gold. This demand would not be rejectable.
  
• Flee: Modified flight mechanic would end in-combat status. Fleeing NPCs would flee out of PC detection radius. If encountered again later, % chance of Parlay would rise to 100% and chance of auto-hostility would drop to 0%.

That's it in a nutshell. What do y'all think?

gothemasticator

This is a great idea indeed.

I always hated that everyone in Cyrodiil is always out to attack. I resorted to shooting all NPCs visible on the roads with arrows first (heh, shoot first, talk later :flamethrower: ), but unintentionally committed a murder here and there (Tamriel Traveller Merchants).

I think this would be a great mod and must-have if implemented.

I like the idea, really anything that adds more interaction with NPCs is a plus.

I like this idea too. Bandits should only want to talk to you if your infamy and karma is considerably low, perhaps even let you sleep over in their camp if you've got bounty, etc. I'm somewhat of a scripting/dialogue/questing master, the Hail! key can for example be set to throw an AoE spell that does some fun stuff with scripts. If you need any help with this I'd be glad to oblige.

So, I'm looking into what this might take, beginning with Hail and Parlay.

Hail

• Hail!: Seemingly not too difficult to create a keystroke-initiated script that would play a soundfile (which would need to be created) and trigger NPCs detection of the PC (within some defined radius? have to learn how detection works). That by itself would be fairly useless. Just a way to deliberately draw attention to oneself. Actually, Hail! might be pretty useless, since Parlay would be initiated by NPCs upon detection of the PC, whether Hail!ed or not. Would be fun to have a key that made your character yell, "Hail!", though.

Parlay

• Pay or die!: Perhaps not too difficult would be creating an object script for NPCs which runs on detection of PC. A simple script could create a messagebox offering a binary option: Pay 100 gold OR Be attacked. Trickier is ensuring that choosing "pay" ends up cancelling NPC hostility. Trickier still if you want a distant NPC to run up to the PC before delivering the ultimatum. Tricky, too is differentiating between detection caused by Hail! and regular detection - say, after being attacked.
  
• Who's in charge here?: What if you encounter a group of usually hostile NPCs? How to keep each one from responding individually to your hail? Ideally I would imagine each group of bandits, etc., defined as its own faction with one of them defined as "leader," from which the rest take their disposition cues. That's not how the game is set up, though. So, possibly put a condition on the NPC script to run only if it hasn't run in the last x seconds? But even if the script only runs once, how does it remove hostility from the whole group? Perhaps create an AOE spell upon clicking the "pay" button? What happens if the AOE misses one of the bandits who is standing a little farther away? If he attacks, do the rest of the bandits attack with him? An AOE spell would have to have a reasonably short duration to make sense - just long enough for the PC to leave detection radius. Abuses come to mind: "pay" a group of bandits in a camp and then freely loot their containers and other loot while the AOE spell is in effect - free loot would make this not such a cool mechanic.
  
• Look at the muscles on you!: Most fun is whether the buttons displayed in the messagebox can be chosen depending on a comparison of PC stats to NPC stats. Can the NPC demand different amounts of gold depending on how strong, how many hp, what level the PC is? I think so, by using getav and getting a ratio of PC stats to NPC stats and then setting up conditions.
  
• You're not supposed to be in here!: Hail! or not, other conditions should apply, like what type of cell the encounter takes place in. Necromancers in the sewers are presumably going to kill anyone who stumbles in without bargaining, while bandits along the roadside are really only after money.

Another question, of course, is whether to use messageboxes versus entering dialogue. I like the messageboxes, though.

It also seems like the type of thing that ought to be done only with scripts, for compatibility reasons. Well, I've been looking for an excuse to learn scripting. I'll see how much time I have to devote.

gothemasticator

Good luck. You mentioned you wanted to learn about http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Category:Detection.

Thanks! That's one of the pages I've now bookmarked. Looks like I've got an evening of learning ahead! Fun!

I'm going to start with Hail! and see if I can that script working. I'll just use a placeholder sound sample from a free archive. Cliffworms linked to one recently. I'll look there. If not a voice file, at least a horn honking would do for the moment.

As outlined above, Parlay and the rest are much more complicated, and I've got plenty to learn.

gothemasticator

Just noticed that what you are trying to do with the parlay looks a lot like what highwaymen do, you either pay and walk, or reject and kill him. You should look at how that is done to get a start.

Mr. Monkey

True. Thanks.

gothemasticator

It seems like you could potentially do a lot of interesting context-based responses with this.

Someone mentioned bandits letting you sleep over in their camp. I like that idea, but a there are a lot more ways this could be applied.

If you had high fame or infamy, high bounty, and/or high skill levels, there might be a chance for certain creatures in the game to be "cautiously friendly" to you. Conjurers might look you over, note that you have high Infamy and Conjuration skill, and say, "Hey bro, come on in. You can hang out here as long as you don't touch anything." Necromancers would require the same, but have more stringent standards - you have to be really infamous for them to feel comfortable around you. Conversely, if you have very high Fame, low Infamy, and no preexisting Bounty, guards might be more hesitant to throw you out of places you nominally don't belong, and unwilling to attack or arrest you if you ignore their "Leave now!" commands while trespassing.

This behavior could be assigned when you hit the 'parlay' button upon meeting the group. When they've sized you up and decided to let you stay, their aggression towards you is reduced to a level such that, as long as your weapon stays sheathed and you don't steal anything, they don't mind you. Perhaps ownership could then be assigned to all containers and objects (except beds) nearby, to keep you from looting without consequences. This could be a permanent-ish thing; this status (both aggression and ownership) could be set so that it lasts for a respawn time, which makes a reasonable amount of sense. If you just leave the room, they shouldn't forget that they decided you were OK - or otherwise, that they just finished robbing you and you don't have much left.

Probably true. However, I am right now interested only in creating ways to back out of a combat situation. I'm not trying to create new relationships. My concern is basically twofold:

• Hostile perma-hostile NPCs (like bandits) limit player choice by adding yet more inescapable combat situations in a gameworld already full of monsters, etc.
  
• Suicidally hostile NPCs don't make much sense. I'm willing to believe in suicidally agressive goblins, but not roadside bandits. They just want your money and a place to sleep and drink beer at the end of the day.

As far as ownership and length of time of non-aggressiveness - I'm really thinking short term. You encounter a bandit. He's tougher than you. You hand over the 250 gold pieces. Then you get out of there before he changes his mind. That's the scenario, so I'm just trying to think of ways to avoid being able to rob his camp blind on your way out.

All this is interesting. My current plan however is:

• Get Hail! to work.
  
• Then work on a logical map for Parlay while learning appropriate scripting skills.

gothemasticator

Re. the Highwayman: I haven't had this happen recently because I haven't played to a high enough level, but I remember on my play-throughs a number of years ago that I used to get to a point in the game when Highwaymen wouldn't accost me anymore. They'd just walk away! This was after I'd completed the MQ and was pretty high level and had the stats to go with it. I don't think it was mod related, but it's possible. I don't run any overhaul mods or Tamriel Travellers or anything like that.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention this in case it has any bearing on your ideas

Just wanted to pipe in and say I love where this is going - especially the idea of incorporating fame / infamy / etc... into NPCs initial disposition towards you. This type of dynamic world is something I think many many people would get on board with and incorporate into their gameplay.

Taking notes, bethesda? (grin)

All right then, let's flesh out this fame/infamy idea.

My personal take on it as it exists in the vanilla game is that fame and infamy aren't that widely useful by themselves. Sure, a high infamy should have some effect on guards' dispositions toward you, but a necromancer shouldn't like you any more just because your a rampant pickpocket. And a high fame might get you an adoring fan, but arena champions shouldn't be welcomed into high society.

It seems to me that checks on the PC's statistics (items stolen, murders, etc.) could conceivably have some great uses in quest mods. Heck, even demanding a high enough fame has a use if someone in a quest is looking for a real violent do-gooder type. But, outside of quest mods...

Actually, I have a whole 'nother set of thoughts on designing a good replacement for Oblivion's fame and infamy system. In short, it's this:

• Every NPC would be made a member of a social circle.
  
• Every time you do something witnessed by a member of that social circle that they perceive as good or bad, your reputation with that circle goes up or down accordingly.
  
• NPCs far enough removed from the social circle would have no change in disposition toward you at all.
  
• Some acts would be considered public and therefore affect all social circles, although perhaps not affect them all the same way.

This, however, would mean making big changes to the existing factions, which in turn would play hell with mod compatibility. It would take some real thinking through in any case.

Returning to Parlay, though... It would be neat to be recognized in the parlay interface if you were Arena Champion or some other title. But other than publicly known figures, I would think a bandit is just sizing you up based on your size, the quality of your weapons, etc. - stuff that pretty easily translates into checks on your level and your hp. That seems to me to be all the reason a hostile needs to decide whether to demand money from you, kill you out of hand, or beg for his own life.

I'm enjoying discussing this. Thanks, folks, for your thoughts.

gothemasticator

There is one area that checks stats other than fame/infamy: the guards response when you've murdered someone. Once again, not sure what bearing it has on your ideas, but I must say I've been tempted on more than one occasion to reset my murder count due to the guard's greeting. I'm referring to the "keep your sword sheathed, or I'll put you down myself, you murdering bastard" greeting. Not a big deal, but I don't think one murder makes me a psychopath!

LOL :rolleyes:

gothemasticator,
Here is some code to cycle through all NPCs:

ref tmpRef...; GetFirstRef   ; refType = 69 for NPCs, something else for all actors check OBSE docs; cellDepth = 0 is current cell, 1 is 8 adjacent cells, 2 is an adjacent adjacent.  I use this for tracking preattack status of NPCs in the area. ; disabledRefs = may not need this turned on. probably not, could be zero or blanklet tmpRef := GetFirstRef 69 2 1while (tmpRef)  ; do work here on tmpRef  ; check stats, whatever  ; could add to an array and sort to determine "the leader", parlay with the leader, then set all stats to follow  let tmpRef := getNextRef	loop

If you have not scripted before then this will be some brain damage to get your head around. Like "where the heck do I put that code?" For this code it could be in a quest script. Make sure to set the delay on the script to 0.01 to make it run every frame. This will allow fine grain data about NPCs, creatures, whatever. Oh, and when you are cycling through people there may be NPCs that show up in the list that aren't there. This may be a situation where you want disabled refs off. I found that at the house in Greyland that some dude shows up in the list of refs that is hidden, disabled, or not there. Must be for some quest later. Either that or a sick peeping tom.

Awesome. Thank you!

Yes, it's a lot to get my head around, but I am having fun learning. No promises whatsoever on a time frame for any of this. But, if it works in the end, or if something that works come out of it, I'll be happy.

gothemasticator

Goth...you have a pretty good idea. Good luck on it!

any updates on this?

If someone made this possible, it would be purely awesome.

I made a mod that does exactly this a while back, called "http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20381" -- it allowed a PC to call for a truce (which would be negotiated via speechcraft/conversation) or to demand surrender (which would be resolved via comparative strength/health/aggression/etc). Either method would alert NPCs to your presence.

These features were later integrated into my mod http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20736, which I'm currently gearing up to rewrite and expand.

Since V&C came out, there have been several excellent mods that address this idea:

1. http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31535: this mod is an alternative take on truces based on speechcraft.

2. http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22392: this mod does a great job of setting up a system for NPCs to flee or surrender, and for enemy creatures to flee when wounded and outmatched.

Always room for alternative takes on the issue, of course, but you should know what else is out there and maybe think about teaming up with one or more of the other modders working on this stuff to make an integrated truce/surrender/etc system.

This V&C of yours looks just what I'm looking for, downloading right now!
The things that I thought was interesting in the original idea (which I don't hink is included in V&C) was that people could flee and groups could demand a parlay.
But for now, your mod is a really good alternative. Since you're going to rewrite it, how about teaming up with some others and make it the ultimate NPC yielding mod?

I am *so* looking forward to this. :twirl: