"Shor Son of Shor" isn't canon. Also, it takes place after the Convention.

Canon? What does that have to do with anything?

Certainly not being right or wrong.

But I'm lost, what exactly is trying to be established?

Never mind. Shor was always Shor, but a person/spirit can become Shor. A spirit who is King will become a Rebel. Enantiomorph. Shor is a title, or icon, more than a particular person. A limit every creature is possessed with.

Shor can only always be Shor if you're speaking from a point of non-linearity. In the linear course of things though, Shor was Lorkhan. He only became Shor when Lorkhan lost his Divine Spark.



What are you quoting from, and how is it sensical and/or pertinent? I think you have it the other way around. A King who is a spirit (e.g. Ysmir/Wulfharth), will become a rebel.

What are you even referring to when you bluntly state,

?

Who or what is Shor chiral to in this situation? Enantiomorph only refers one object/person and its non-identical mirror image.

As for Shor as a title, I agree but only past the fact of the actual Shezzar. The title is the only thing that can be mantled.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rebels-return

Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)


There is no other way around. It's an exchange. By spirit, I mean spirit, in the broadest, least specific sense. Spirit / person. Myth is pertinent through reenactment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return_%28Eliade%29.

Yes, their ascension would be proper conclusion. However, I don't agree with the idea that they became the Aedra. For those 1008 years there might have been eight human gods walking around in Cyrodiil, but that period ended and so presumably did those human gods.

Remember that the Selective abhored all things Elven and had just before the Dragon Break realized that all gods (Akatosh specifically) contained essentially elven elements that could not be separated. Mantling or any other form of displacement is out of the question as it would require them to actually accept those Elven elements.

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Rebel and King,

that's actually based on sermon Thirty-Five. The very idea that there is a duality is false, both are the same and thus a figure that would first by identified as mantling Lorkhan through rebellion against the statues quo can later on become identified as mantling Akatosh as the ruler of the new status quo. This hooks in on the idea that Lorkhan and Akatosh are opposite sides of the same coin. Which is referenced a few times in the Songs of Pelinal.

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MK inventing new words:

Doesn't bother me so much. Keeps the writing fresh, prevents people from using search too much without actually reading stuff and might occasionally add some style. It's not so hard to recognize the subject though. You have to learn to look for the patterns, not the words.

The Marukhati are never named though. Is there even a reliable text that explains or hypothesizes what happened to them after they danced on the tower? Usually with Dragon Breaks, the ascension is pretty clear, but with the Dragon Break, it doesn't seem like actual apotheosis is all that important. The Marukhati weren't trying to ascend at all; they were just trying to remake a god.

If you're going to mantle someone, I suppose you outta proofread for paradoxes before attempting anything drastic.

By the way, when Numidium was assembled, there was a Dragon Break, but for what reason? And what was the temporal result?

And with Red Mountain, when the Heart of Lorkhan was destroyed, what were the broader consequences? Did Shezzar form back into Lorkhan (Since nothing can ever truly be destroyed, I'd expect the Heart to return to Aetherius.)?

The way the text goes yes, the pulled in the Aurbis to remake a god. Though everything else doesn't match up with that.

For example in the WWY: "Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.", which suggest the Tribunal knows how to Break the Dragon - ascension.



Not sure, but didn't that coincide with the bit where Talos had Zurin take the Heart of Ysmir?



Buh? Shezzar is Lorkhan, no need to do any divine book keeping. Don't know what happened to the heart, don't think anybody does.

Because the Heart (the kalpa itself) was released (Nerevarine: "Pantheon by incarnation, as all alive now know.")* from the symbol which mocked and broke Auriel's kalpa (the Numidium), I'll venture it's within Nirn's womb (knit for the next kalpa, which is divinity of man).

*The same pantheon at Convention?

Just a hunch. I'm not without them.

where is it stated that the Heart of Shor IS a kalpa? A kalpa is a cylce of time....

Since The Nevarine broke the Enchantements that the Dwemer put of the heart, but didn't destroy it or remove it from Nirn, I think it is somewhere under Red mountain, waiting to be found.

Right, it is a regime of Time.

"This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other."

Releasing the Heart (the ego of the Dragon) upon Nirn is symbolic of the tyrant Auriel, foistsing his kingdom on the spirits. The kalpa. The Heart.

wrong button

I always read the Temple part as simple Temple arrogance. It's like if you ask an Ordinator what he thinks of the rest of the world, he'll just go on a smug, aggressive, xenophobic rant.

Well Numidium was assembled before the first era, wasn't it? Nu-Hatta mentions Walk-Brass here:



I'm having trouble understanding the physical timeline of Numidim. Apparently it was built during the Merethic, but that may not mean it was assembled during the Merethic as well. There was a Dragon Break at Red Mountain, but I'm unclear about if it happened at the Battle of Red Mountain, the destruction of the Heart of Lorkhan or both for that matter.

Regardless, Tiber Septim assembled Numidium, and then there was the Warp in the West, but it's hard for me to believe that the Warp in the West was the Dragon Break associated with assembling Numidium. The Warp in the West was caused by the manipulation of Numidium, not its assembly. It was, in fact, already assembled, was it not? It just needed the Mantella.

Lets see, this is slightly hazy:

1. Numidium is built by Kargrenac, but never activated. Nu-Hatta is bunching a few thousand years together, but all the Merish Tower building happened after the Dawn. After all the Dawn ended with the creation of the Adamantine and Red Tower which everybody is emulating

2. After the defeat of the Dwemer the Tribunal use the Heart to ascend. Afaik, this breaks the dragon as evidenced by the eruption of Red Mountain (but I'd have to look up the source). It's hard to make a conclusive statement here though as the accounts around this period are a bit garbled.

3. Vivec sells the Numidium to Tiber in return for the Armistice and Tiber assembles the Numidium in the halls of the collosus. Something big happened here causing an incident in rimmen. A few things are going on here. Ysmir had his hart ripped out by Arctus, or Arctus had his heart ripped out, or something like that. Big mythical implications either way. Numidium is turned on and set loose on Alinor. They're still fighting it in time capsules. (From a obscure bit of text posted by MK, too lazy to look it up). The Dragon did probebly break here though not so noticeably as with only one god there isn't so much to contradict.

5. Warp in the West, because of having eight endings in Daggerfall - eg: the implication is that the player like the Numidium and all those other gods is a Dragonbreaker.

If you want to get it clearer it's best to start reading texts.

Okay, reread my favorite Dragon Break books and Arcturian Heresy again. The one thing I still can't wrap my mind around is the idea of a subtle Dragon Break. It's inevitable that something will effect time and space (you called it rimmen? source for that?), but as far as Red Mountain is concerned, was there any noticable disturbance?

Also, this is more of a Dwemer question, but if the knew they were defeated, why did they sacrifice themselves to plate Numidium? It's not like Kagrenac was there to control it and wreak vengeance against the Chimer for it, or was that sacrifice their form of ascension; becoming one with their god?

And concerning Arctus/Ysmir, @Arcturian Heresy, Ysmir blows a hole or something through Arctus while he attempts to capture his soul. Ysmir survives incorporealy so the soul trap must have failed. Whose soul then occupies the Mantella? Zurin Arctus'? The questions posed at the end still make me uneasy about my understanding of Tamrielic history and lore though.

Was Ysmir not Shor? When you read Heresy, it plainly states that Ysmir's heart blasts a hole through Zurin Arctus, implying that the Mantella takes the soul of the battlemage, but my real focus is the talk of Ysmir's heart. At that moment, does the mantle of Underking pass to Zurin Arctus? I can think of no other explanation, as now, Ysmir has a heart while Shor does not. Temorally there is a problem with this. Time would have to move backwards from the point of mantling so that Zurin Arctus becomes Shor the second his heart is blasted out. Like Shor as well, he is betrayed by his former friends and is left wandering the Nirn as the Underking. That's full circle in my mind. Then Tiber Septim would become Talos at Sancre Tor, his apotheosis creating another Dragon Break, correct?

It was awhile back on the forums, but someone mentioned that he used the soul of Zurin Arctus to ascend, or Akatosh gave him the soul of Zurin Arctus. I can't remember which or if either of the two was what happened. All the Talos/Arctus/Ysmir stuff get blurry when I think about it. As far as I can tell, there are two primary mantles being passed around like a joint at a party: Underking and Shor.

Here's an http://www.mwmythicmods.com/Archives/Lore/Dragon%20Broke.htm thread.


Absorbicide was coined for Kagrenac's version of "ascension." I read "Gold Skin" and I think of circumcision. Bizarre, but the rite of passage for boys (assimilation with the tribe) parallels absorbicide. Prime Gestalt: Dwemeri monomania of harmony.


Arctus was Ysmir was the Underking. The heretical thought was Arctus may be divine. All three developed into Lorkhan archetypes.


The Nazz article structured the relationship. I wouldn't read anything about the Enantiomorph without referencing it.

To say they are each other goes against what I believe to be a fundamental rule of mantling.



When you mantle someone, you do not become them, you become the title. Notice how the Stomcrown was mantled. It is a title that a person wears. A mantle is a cloak or cape or some other related article of clothing. Zurin Arctus has he chest blown out, his soul is collected and used by his former allies. He has walked the path of Shor and now he wears the mantle of Shor. He is NOT Shor. King Wulfharth was born as the incarnation of Shor. He IS Shor. Wulfharth dies, becomes the Ash King, the Underking; this time walking the path of Shor as well (yes it is possible to be the incarnation and mantle, the Nerevarine did it), he's thwarted at Red Mountain, he helps Tiber Septim build his empire, he's betrayed by Zurin Arctus (oh look, Shor again), Zurin Arctus is blasted this time; his heart of all things (hey look at that! I wonder who else had their heart blasted out...), just like that Zurin Arctus with his soul inside the Mantella becomes known as the Underking. Notice that Underking is not a name; it is a title. He has mantled Ysmir, who is Shor. He has mantled Shor by association, by DEGREES.

Honestly, I think this forum's gotten out of hand with mantling. The only way to be someone is to be their incarnation. Mantling only gets you their title. For the Nords, it was just as good as being that person.

Notice in "The Five Songs of King Wulfharth" how the Nords refer to King Wulfharth as Ysmir because of his great Thu'um, and Shor's Tongue. He IS Ysmir, but Tiber Septim would gain that title in a different way, but like Wulfharth, he would still be called Ysmir.

And Enatiomorph only refers to two individuals who are non-identical mirrors of each other.

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Whether incarnate or mantler, they're an archetype, derived from the idols of the Dawn themselves. Culminating a series of prototypes or stealing the god's shadow, the end is similar.


Yes.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim...

Rimmen comes from the Where were you when....



Once in Daggerfall, once in Rimmen.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-skeleton-man also has a nice tibit about rimmen. There's where he built the Hall of Colossus—a mighty name for a secret testing warehouse—and that's where Big Walker was born. And that's why that part of our Elsweyr is still poisoned glow-rock, where no cats go. Ach, for the lunacy of you Wayward Folk!

Once turned on Tiber used it to smack down Summerset, not just as a giant metal mech but rather.





Final Report to Trebonius answers that in more detail, it's in the FSG. But basically the Dwemer didn't have any gods, rather they recoqnized that in the creation of Mundus the gods divided and became the multitudes of man and mer. The found a way to reverse this process by joining together again into a single god.



In Daggerfall it was Zurins heart. He says as much. In the Arcturian Heresy (being a Heresy) it's claimed that it was Ysmirs. Who it was, I don't know with absolute certainty. What matters though is that some one lost his heart on command of another. Which re-enacts the end of the Dawn and the creation of the first tower.



So who is the real James Bond?

Gods are just that, character rather then actors.

I'm more inclined to believe "Five Songs" and "Heresy" simply because they are written in a simpler, non-stylized format. Take Nu-Hatta Intercept for instance. For as much fun as MK has with words in the Intercepts, he does a lot of simple fact stating to set tons of lore straight.

The important thing though for me though is to reconcile "Arcturian Heresy" with the well-known belief that Zurin Arctus is the Underking. In my opinion, Arctus takes on Ysmir's mantle, so that Arctus becomes the Underking, mantling Shor in the process and becoming bound to Nirn as a wandering spirit.

I wish there was a sequal to "The Arcturian Heresy" though. I'm interested in knowing what Shor gets into between the 1'st Era after Tiber Septim and the appearance of the next Shezzarine at the end of the 3'rd Era.

On a side note, what was the order of events in the battle of Red Mountain? According to 5 Songs, the Dwemer were initially allied with the Chimer against the Nords, but Dagoth Ur turned them against each other? I've read that book over and over, and I can't exactly figure out what Dagoth Ur was doing. Also the author mentions orcs allying themselves with Nords, which kind of baffles me. Along with that, the author distinguishes Lorkhan as being present and getting his heart ripped out at the conclusion of the battle. Is he referring to Ysmir being killed/banished?

Yes.

What matters though is that some one lost his heart on command of another. Which re-enacts the end of the Dawn and the creation of the first tower.