Argonians and Other Races : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:57 pm

The argonians in Oblivion seem to have mammories -- and mammories have a purpose.

As for relationships... has everyone forgotten a http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Real_Barenziah_v_II

Barenziah and Straw settled into Rifton for the winter, taking a cheap room in the slummier section of town. Barenziah wanted to join the Thieves Guild, knowing there would be trouble if she were caught freelancing. One day in a barroom she caught the eye of a known member of the Guild, a bold young Khajiit named Therris. She offered to bed him if he would sponsor her membership. He looked her over, grinning, and agreed, but said she'd still have to pass an initiation.

"What sort of initiation?"

"Ah," Therris said. "Pay up first, sweetness."

[This passage has been censored by order of the Temple.]

Straw was going to kill her, and maybe Therris too. What in Tamriel had possessed her to do such a thing? She cast an apprehensive look around the room, but the other patrons had lost interest and gone back to their own business. She did not recognize any of them; this wasn't the inn where she and Straw were staying. With luck it'd be a while, or never, before Straw found out.
***

Therris was by far the most exciting and attractive man she had yet met. He not only told her about the skills she needed to become a member of the Thieves Guild, but also trained her in them himself or else introduced her to people who could.

Among these was a woman who knew something about magic. Katisha was a plump and matronly Nord. She was married to a smith, had two teenage children, and was perfectly ordinary and respectable--except that she was very fond of cats (and by logical inference, their humanoid counterparts the Khajiit), had a talent for certain kinds of magic, and cultivated rather odd friends. She taught Barenziah an invisibility spell and schooled her in other forms of stealth and disguise. Katisha mingled magical and non-magical talents freely, using one set to enhance the other. She was not a member of the Thieves Guild but was fond of Therris in a motherly sort of way. Barenziah warmed to her as she never had toward any woman, and over the next few weeks she told Katisha all about herself.

She brought Straw there too sometimes. Straw approved of Katisha. But not of Therris. Therris found Straw "interesting" and suggested to Barenziah that they arrange what he called a "threesome."

"Absolutely not," Barenziah said firmly, grateful that Therris had broached the subject in private for once. "He wouldn't like it. I wouldn't like it!"

Therris smiled his charming, triangular feline smile and sprawled lazily on his chair, stretching his limbs and curling his tail. "You might be surprised. Both of you. Pairing is so boring."

Barenziah answered him with a glare.

There's a more... descriptive version in Daggerfall, but I question its legitimacy.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:34 pm

That's with a khajiit, not an argonian. Two completely different species, with the khajiit being Ehlfoney decedents, where as argonians are not.

Also, think about it, I'm pretty sure the saying "If there's a will, there's a way" is in effect here.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:11 pm

As has been stated earlier in this thread, the http://uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Fall_of_Vitharn explicitly states that it is possible.

This, of course, amused the Madgod to no end, and so he allowed the marriage of Csaran to Sheen-in-Glade, daughter of an Argonian midwife who believed that the mortal sphere would afford her daughter nothing but hatred and oppression.

Csaran was obsessively nepotistic, and distrustful of anyone with whom he shared no blood relation including his bride. Though Sheen-in-Glade bore a son by the Count (who disappeared from the Isles in his twentieth year), it is known that the two shared their bed with decreasing frequency as Csaran's paranoia grew

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:32 am

That's with a khajiit, not an argonian. Two completely different species, with the khajiit being Ehlfoney decedents, where as argonians are not.

Also, think about it, I'm pretty sure the saying "If there's a will, there's a way" is in effect here.

, . "You ought to meet some nice elven boys, though. If you keep on keeping company with Khajiits and humans you'll find yourself pregnant soon." from the real barenzia.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:18 pm

As has been stated earlier in this thread, the Fall of Vitharn explicitly states that it is possible.

'Scuse me if I don't buy "they did it in the Daedric realm of crazy people" as a valid example.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:15 pm

'Scuse me if I don't buy "they did it in the Daedric realm of crazy people" as a valid example.

Most things seem to work the same as they do on Nirn, though, more or less.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:26 pm

Give me some examples. We have humans who claim to be thousands of years old and animals that regenerate when in contact with water. Stuff like "they eat" doesn't count.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:58 am

Give me some examples. We have humans who claim to be thousands of years old and animals that regenerate when in contact with water. Stuff like "they eat" doesn't count.

For the time thing, time is one of the few things that I've seen that doesn't work exactly the same as it does in Tamriel, which could explain the longevity thing for some people.

As for similarities, I have them:

Physics behaves the same way it does in Tamriel, I don't know if any specific differences.
Chemistry behaves the same way in Tamriel (If trolls can regenerate constantly, I don't see anything abnormal about Baliwogs regenerating in water). Poisons, potions,and drugs work exactly the same in Tamriel as they do in the Isles.
Magic that works on Tamriel works exactly the same in the Isles.

We've also seen these similarities in the Deadlands.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:04 pm

Yet, miraculously, magic, physics, and chemistry don't work the same way in Vvardenfell and in Highrock and Stros M'kai

In other words, all those things are game mechanics.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:39 am

Yet, miraculously, magic, physics, and chemistry don't work the same way in Vvardenfell and in Highrock and Stros M'kai

In other words, all those things are game mechanics.

Differing game mechanics between titles and differing (or the lack thereof) mechanics between realm in one game are two different things. The former has no bearing in lore. I've not seen, read, or heard of any real proof that anything other than time behaves differently in the Isles.

Fact is, we have people suffering mundane injuries, drug addicts (including drugs originating on Nirn), and spells that work the same no matter what plane you're on in the Isles. It isn't a game mechanics thing, it's a lore-based thing.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:03 pm

Magic seems to behave remarkably similar. And if you want a pure lore example, the Imperial War College used to send their future battlemages into Oblivion to prove that they knew their magick.

However, I'm still a huge fan of my Mortal Mental Stress theory for why Oblivion seems to act quite similarly to Nirn, so I'm actually on your side here Nerevar.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:01 am

As has been stated earlier in this thread, the Fall of Vitharn explicitly states that it is possible.

This, of course, amused the Madgod to no end

These are the keywords. When a god decrees, common rules have to step aside. Doesn't mean it's *normally* possible.

"You ought to meet some nice elven boys, though. If you keep on keeping company with Khajiits and humans you'll find yourself pregnant soon."

That's because "Constant pairing with a human has brought you to early fertility" ©. First, it doesn't mean that the child from a Khajiit would be a possible consequence (while with humans, it's an admitted possibility), only that mating with Khajiiti increases elf woman's fertility in general; second, it still adds nothing to Argonians.

As for similarities, I have them:

Physics behaves the same way it does in Tamriel, I don't know if any specific differences.
Chemistry behaves the same way in Tamriel (If trolls can regenerate constantly, I don't see anything abnormal about Baliwogs regenerating in water). Poisons, potions,and drugs work exactly the same in Tamriel as they do in the Isles.
Magic that works on Tamriel works exactly the same in the Isles.

All of which is beside the point. "Daedric realm of crazy people" is a land of insanity, as in insane people, not necessarily insane physics. Working of poisons, potions, or falling rocks doesn't have to be any different in Sheo's domain; irregularities in people's behavior are obligatory, though. Three guesses to which category sixual relationships fall.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:54 am

Mehrunes: yea, thats one, though I don't know if magic can be said to act the same purely based on that. It could be that there is enough variation in the use of magic to make training in such an environment beneficial (like olympic athletes who train at high altitudes to improve their oxygen usage). We must also remember that the Battlespire was an artificially created pocket realm of Oblivion, rather than the realm of a Daedric prince.

Crimson: its still game mechanics. The way physics, injury, and potions behave is hard coded into the game. The only way to make a poison that doesn't harm the player/character is to make it a custom scripted item, which is impossible to do with the coded alchemy system. Similarly, altering the way actors receive damage would require unique scripts. Magic can't be altered at all, unless, again, you create new spells (see: summoning Haskil). Physics is completely hard coded, making an object not fall at all is about as crazy as you can get. In other words, altering the mechanics of the isles is either impossible or cost prohibitive.

Drugs and dying can also be explained by the nature of the realm. Since the Shivering Isles are the realm of madness, they draw in people who are crazy. Drug addiction leads to some pretty insane behavior, and can easily be grouped under insanity. Similarly, mentally unstable people tend to commit suicide or do stuff to get themselves killed.

Anyways, we don't really even know if that book is anything but fiction. It probably survived through at least one Graymarch (i.e. 1008 years ago), since Vitharn is now a ruin.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:08 pm

Crimson: its still game mechanics. The way physics, injury, and potions behave is hard coded into the game. The only way to make a poison that doesn't harm the player/character is to make it a custom scripted item, which is impossible to do with the coded alchemy system. Similarly, altering the way actors receive damage would require unique scripts. Magic can't be altered at all, unless, again, you create new spells (see: summoning Haskil). Physics is completely hard coded, making an object not fall at all is about as crazy as you can get. In other words, altering the mechanics of the isles is either impossible or cost prohibitive.

If things actually worked that differently in other realms, I don't think Bethesda would have made the game where you can enter other realms without taking it into account.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:05 pm

If things actually worked that differently in other realms, I don't think Bethesda would have made the game where you can enter other realms without taking it into account.

Sure - they're working completely free of any time and budget constraints, and for sure don't have their Argonians morph from "men with funny colours" to something a little bit more alien (but only a little bit, to not alienate the typical braindead viewer/player), just like Star Trek did with the Klingons in roughly the same time frame ...
It's just that they did not care for those "minor quibbles".
Actually, the very first time the character enters Oblivion in Oblivion (sic!), it's pretty clear the laws of nature do not fully apply in that realm: a little stony island in a vast sea of lava ... what cosy daily medium temperatur would you expect there ... 600°C? 800°C? And where does the breathable air come from in the first place?
No, obviously, those planes do not have the same physical laws, and maybe aren't even really physical at all, but their appearance in the human mind only a picture of something that he can't fully apprehend.

And it is possible that maybe an Argonian changes his/her name when changing six. We don't know at what point there is a six change - is it gradual, fast? Does it only occur under specific conditions? Do they all start out as males then change to females, vice versa, or is it a mix (some males, some females; eventually, they swap genders)? Could it be related to the Hist tree? If it is Hist-related, perhaps Argonians living away from Black Marsh do not undergo the phase change because of lack of access/proximity to the hist - or some other factor/trigger/stimulus.

Yeah, I think you're right here.
Let's first look at known facts and rumors 'bout Argonians:
- ... call themselves "people of the root"
- ... hatch from eggs
- ... have some kind "naming ceremony"
- ... "lick the Hist Tree" in some ceremony
- ... may undergo physical changes (turn more animal-like) after "licking the tree"
- ... get some drugged-like state from "licking the tree"
- ... undergo gender changes for unknown causes
- ... haven't been seen undergo transformations if away from the Black Marsh

Thinking 'bout it, it just dawned to me:
All the fuss about the naming ceremony, and "liking the Hist", and the drug-like properties of its sap, and all - the Argonians need the Hist to mature into a form able to reproduce at all. Maybe they even don't have a gender until they "lick the tree" the first time?!
It seems very appropiate that they get a new name then. And each time they "lick the tree" later, they switch gender - and leave their old life, and name, behind.
Being "drugged" during the process of transformation would only seem to be logical, as the pains could be considerable for a human-sized creature living at least partly on try land. No-one says its painless for those fish, btw., and those are swimming in a zero-G well-tempered environment ... .
Speaking of fish: the "fish-like" properties someone cited is not the way they swim, because they swim like lizards or crocs, not like fish, because they have neither pectoral nor tail fins. It's the gender changing ...

just my 0,02 €
now back to wasting time on combining mods ..

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:07 pm

Actually, the very first time the character enters Oblivion in Oblivion (sic!), it's pretty clear the laws of nature do not fully apply in that realm: a little stony island in a vast sea of lava ... what cosy daily medium temperatur would you expect there ... 600°C? 800°C? And where does the breathable air come from in the first place?
No, obviously, those planes do not have the same physical laws, and maybe aren't even really physical at all, but their appearance in the human mind only a picture of something that he can't fully apprehend.

I wouldn't infer that much, the whole "lava temperature" thing is a very oft-neglected thing. Including in Morrowind, where the geology of the land resulted in plenty of enclosed locations with pools of lava, but like the Deadlands, no ill effects. It also should be pointed out that the Deadlands have no sun, thus the lava is, ironically, likely what keeps the realm survivable.

And as I recall, Deadland and Shivering Isles flora can grow on Nirn just like they do in their native realms.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:17 am

Deadlands, maybe. SI, I don't think its proven. The "bleed through" of Oblivion around Oblivion portals I think are more just artifact attached to the opening of portals than a blood grass seed travelling from Oblivion through the portal, and growing on nirn around the gate. I think it depends on whether or not the bleed through disappears and I think it does.

The only other instance is the Wizard's Tower DLC which has Deadlands and Paradise plants.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:09 pm

I'd assume it's like a canine and feline attempting to breed. The offspring won't flourish and the genetic code is too different for successful birth.

Sure, they can be attracted to eachother, and even have intercourse, but they won't get any kids from it.

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:00 am

As an addendum, there's also http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Kud-Ei. A few rumors about her stand out...

"Kud-Ei seems upset about something lately. I'd stay away from the Mages Guild if I were you."
"Kud-Ei is a member of Bravil's Mages Guild. She put the word out that a good friend of hers went missing."
"I saw Kud-Ei moping around outside the Mages Guild yesterday. In fact, I could swear she was crying. I hope she finds her missing friend."

Though she is painted as a loyal-to-a-fault leader of her guildhall, and is well-respected, she's most protective towards the other women...

"Kud-Ei is very protective of her sisters in the Mages Guild. And she's quite skilled in creating illusions."
"I understand that Kud-Ei takes good care of her sisters in the Mages Guild."

...whereas the "good friend" she was upset and crying over is a male High Elf. Might just be reading too much into that, but it's the impression it originally gave me.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:54 pm

Well, Kud-Ei lives in Bravil, and it's a cesspool culturally, morally, and economically, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of unsavory folk tried to take advantage of women living there. It just may be that since Bravil is the taint of Cyrodiil, Kud-Ei, being the guild-hall master, would make sure that the women in her hall are not taken advantage of and are protected.

With her good friend, I find it implied that the two were more than just "study mates."

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:55 am

Sure - they're working completely free of any time and budget constraints, and for sure don't have their Argonians morph from "men with funny colours" to something a little bit more alien (but only a little bit, to not alienate the typical braindead viewer/player), just like Star Trek did with the Klingons in roughly the same time frame ...
It's just that they did not care for those "minor quibbles".
Actually, the very first time the character enters Oblivion in Oblivion (sic!), it's pretty clear the laws of nature do not fully apply in that realm: a little stony island in a vast sea of lava ... what cosy daily medium temperatur would you expect there ... 600°C? 800°C? And where does the breathable air come from in the first place?
No, obviously, those planes do not have the same physical laws, and maybe aren't even really physical at all, but their appearance in the human mind only a picture of something that he can't fully apprehend.

Yeah, I think you're right here.
Let's first look at known facts and rumors 'bout Argonians:
- ... call themselves "people of the root"
- ... hatch from eggs
- ... have some kind "naming ceremony"
- ... "lick the Hist Tree" in some ceremony
- ... may undergo physical changes (turn more animal-like) after "licking the tree"
- ... get some drugged-like state from "licking the tree"
- ... undergo gender changes for unknown causes
- ... haven't been seen undergo transformations if away from the Black Marsh

Thinking 'bout it, it just dawned to me:
All the fuss about the naming ceremony, and "liking the Hist", and the drug-like properties of its sap, and all - the Argonians need the Hist to mature into a form able to reproduce at all. Maybe they even don't have a gender until they "lick the tree" the first time?!
It seems very appropiate that they get a new name then. And each time they "lick the tree" later, they switch gender - and leave their old life, and name, behind.
Being "drugged" during the process of transformation would only seem to be logical, as the pains could be considerable for a human-sized creature living at least partly on try land. No-one says its painless for those fish, btw., and those are swimming in a zero-G well-tempered environment ... .
Speaking of fish: the "fish-like" properties someone cited is not the way they swim, because they swim like lizards or crocs, not like fish, because they have neither pectoral nor tail fins. It's the gender changing ...

just my 0,02 €
now back to wasting time on combining mods ..

I must say I like your approach. The portrayal of argonians generally points to a certin plasticity in their make-up and though we have many clues we are somewhat short on specifics until we have an Argonian release.

The game mechanics and lore generally do not really tell us as much as we might like about the way races interact when they are in provinces other than their native provinces and that may be because we generally have a mortal interpretation of 'divine' interaction - hence my feeling that the separation between provinces and each race's attachment to their home province has a rather deeper meaning than simple occupation. You might consider the relationship of the 'Gods'/Daedric Princes' attachment for a hint - accepting that mortals are likely more influenced than influencing on a metaphysical level.

In the case of the Argonians they generally appear to have but one god - Sithis - and yet the Hist appear to have achieved an evolutionary status that is beyond the level of mer, beast and human so I look forward to futher cryptic revelations there ...

Also due to the nature of magica (MK warns constantly that the nature of Nirn is magical rather than 'scientific') things that may appear impossible in 'terrestrial' terms are normal on Nirn. We all (including me) tend to 'anthropomorphise' / impose our terrestrial perspective on things which are not reducible in that fashion - and that may well make us all dwemer-like in some fashion from the point of view of the titans and deities of Nirn and Oblivion. ^^

Betting is the fat lady has not sung yet on this one

edit - typo

» Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:05 am

Yeah, I think you're right here.
Let's first look at known facts and rumors 'bout Argonians:
- ... call themselves "people of the root"
- ... hatch from eggs
- ... have some kind "naming ceremony"
- ... "lick the Hist Tree" in some ceremony
- ... may undergo physical changes (turn more animal-like) after "licking the tree"
- ... get some drugged-like state from "licking the tree"
- ... undergo gender changes for unknown causes
- ... haven't been seen undergo transformations if away from the Black Marsh

Thinking 'bout it, it just dawned to me:
All the fuss about the naming ceremony, and "liking the Hist", and the drug-like properties of its sap, and all - the Argonians need the Hist to mature into a form able to reproduce at all. Maybe they even don't have a gender until they "lick the tree" the first time?!
It seems very appropiate that they get a new name then. And each time they "lick the tree" later, they switch gender - and leave their old life, and name, behind.
Being "drugged" during the process of transformation would only seem to be logical, as the pains could be considerable for a human-sized creature living at least partly on try land. No-one says its painless for those fish, btw., and those are swimming in a zero-G well-tempered environment ... .
Speaking of fish: the "fish-like" properties someone cited is not the way they swim, because they swim like lizards or crocs, not like fish, because they have neither pectoral nor tail fins. It's the gender changing ...

just my 0,02 €
now back to wasting time on combining mods ..

More rumors than fact, to be honest. The one main reason as to why I would see this as just rumor is simply because it makes Argonian too dependent on the Hist tree for their entire existence. This only question as to what happen to the Argonians living outside of Argonia. If anything, the ceremony is really just a ceremony. The licking might or might not effect the child in anyways (maybe connecting to a tree as a hive-mind or the licking may stimulate as growth hormone). I doubt these children needed the Hist to reach Maturity. This also pretty much goes hand to hand with the "drug" effect, making it feel its just more like a tribal voodoo tradition and what not.

» Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:50 pm

The Argonians and Hist undergo a symbiosis, which the novel corroborates. It is not a leap to believe they pass through two life-phases with their parent tree. Not when trees and reptiles can be hermaphrodites, and gender is chemical, in the first place. This is one of the least remarkable assertions I've seen made in an ES book.