Firstly, a warning. The whole point of this topic is to discuss major events in past ES games and consider them in relation to Skyrim and beyond. So yes, there will be many spoilers; to Arena, Morrowind and Oblivion + their respective expansions. Don't worry about Daggerfall, as I severely lack in knowledge when it comes to that game. If at any point you, the reader, finds a flaw in my understanding of things, no matter how small, please point it out.

Now without further ado, the topics in discussion.


Part I: Oblivion
note: i am assuming the canon version of the Champion of Cyrodiil is male, thus I will refer to theCoC as him.

1. We already know that the Oblivion Crisis will have an effect on Skyrim. Obviously, as its been stated to be a direct sequel. That's just a no-brainer.

2. A large part of Oblivion was the guilds, and the ability to progress in them. There is always the option for the player to become the Archmage of the Mage's Guild, Master of the Fighter's Guild, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, the Grey Fox for the Thieves Guild, and the Grand Master of the Arena. Oh yea, there is also the option to become the Leader of the reformed Knights of the Nine. Seriously? Is the Champion of Cyrodiil a God? Oh right, he is. (More on that in Part II) . I, personally, doubt that these will be touched upon, or even considered canon later on. I find it unlikely that the CoC to become the leader of every prominent guild in Cyrodiil, but, you never know. Take a look at Morrowind, it was possible for the Nerevarine to advance to the leader of many factions, but we did not hear about this in Oblivion. it was possible for the Nerevarine to become the Archmage of the Mages Guild, supporting the idea that these faction storylines will not be canon, or atleast, for the most part.

3. Going even deeper into the Mage's Guild storyline, you find that there are really no dramatically important events besides Traven's "death", the destruction of the Bruma Mages Guild, which doesn't really matter in the long run, but still, the CoC becoming the Arch Mage, and possibly the most important: The death of Mannimarco. Consider the implications of that, the death of the King of Worms. He is supposedly the greatest necromancer of the modern day, and he simply falls to a rather weak Archmage (the player).

4. Now to the Mehrune's Razor expansion. This will be discussed briefly, since it contains no real canonical value, it could easily be dismissed, either way, it doesn't really matter in the long run. basically a rogue Telvanni mage looks for the Razor to conquer Tamriel. So you kill him and take the Razor for yourself. I only mention this to question the possibility of an appearance of the Razor in Skyrim.

5. Now to Knights of the Nine. This expansion has a pretty dramatic storyline, an undead-ish demigod returns for revenge on the Divines, but of course, the CoC is able to stop him. Now this should be touched upon in future games, even in NPC to NPC dialogue, or a Rumors-esque kind of thing. Think of the Rumors reference to Raven Rock from the Bloodmoon expansion of Morrowind.

6. Back to Vanilla Oblivion to discuss the last topic for Part I, the Daedric Prince quests. The only one I will discuss, and perhaps the only one that really matters is Hermaeus Mora's. The Oghma Infinium is supposedly the book of endless knowledge, and it just happens to land in our beloved CoC's hands, only for a short time, however, before you read it or give it to Martin for the main quest. So this could be a possible impact point in the future.

Done with Part I, or Base Oblivion and its minor expansions.


Part II: Shivering Isles
This is the specific topic I had in my head when I thought of this thread.

1. The most important part of the Shivering Isles, in my opinion, is the revelation that Jyggalag is Sheogorath. Jyggalag is only briefly mentioned in lore books, but no details or really any information is given, which makes me wonder if Bethesda was planning to reveal that from the first mention of his name.

2. Wait, I lied, the actual ending of the SI storyline is far more important that that. This, is what I really was thinking about most. The fact that Jyggalag is released from his curse, which may stir up some trouble with the other Daedra, considering they're the ones who cursed him to begin with, since he was "too powerful". What could this mean for future ES games? A series of attacks in the Daedric Realms lead by The Prince of Order to, maybe unify the other Daedric Realms? Dont take that to heart, that was just a wild guess i just made up to show the possibilities of perhaps the most powerful Daedric Prince being unleashed.

3. The counterpart to # 2 is that the CoC, replaces Sheogorath as the New Prince of Madness, pretty much messing everything up, since mortals in no way should be allowed to become gods, or thats what lore says. This may also stir up trouble, not only with the other Princes, but everything. If word got out that a lowly mortal became a Daedric Prince, almost anything could happen.

Part II, is now complete.


Part III: Morrowind

This section will be as brief as possible, as I never beat Morrowind.

1. The Nerevarine. The hero of Morrowind, saving them from the Dagoth-Ur. And thats Morrowind's Main quest. However, in Oblivion it is mentioned that the Nerevarine has left on an expedition to Akavir, and hasn't been heard from since his departure. This has to tie in to the future of TES, I will not accept the Nerevarine to just disappear, considering they went through the trouble of mentioning him in Oblivion. Unless they did that to atleast provide some closure, and don't plan to go further.

Thats basically the possible impact of Morrowind, that I know of. you are welcome, and urged, to expand in any way.

Oh wait:
2. The death of Almalexia and Sotha Sil, plus Oblivion's rumor that Vivec has gone missing, and that he has possibly been taken by the Daedra. Thus the entire Tribunal of Morrowind is gone.

Part IV: Arena
Yes, yes, this is the proto-lore as Lady Nerevar calls it, but its still worth mentioning, if nothing else.

1. The Staff of Chaos. The UESP artcle gives very little detail to what exactly this thing is... It simply states that it was formed from the essence of the very land itself. So when the Hero of Arena joins the fragments with the Jewel of Fire and defeats Jagar Tharn, it merely is placed under security in White Gold Tower. Perhaps it will return in a future ES game, since it is "nigh-indestructible" as the aforementioned article states. In the Lore article on Jagar Tharn, it assumes that he is the Bard Nightingale from Barenziah's court, and he seduced her to take the Staff from Mournhold. It also states that it is unknown to what his goals were during the Imperial Simulacrum.

2. Jagar Tharn. This is sort of an off-shoot of the original topic, but it is worth mentioning. In the book "The Light and Dark" from Daggerfall, mentions the two opposite and primal forces. It gives no names, but it can be assumed with confidence that it is Anu and Padomay. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Light_and_the_Dark
I highly recommend reading this. It seems to form a unique underlying basis for all the "bad guys" in the Elder Scrolls games. A perfect note to end this thread on.

So, thats my thread. I hope that it sparked new thoughts in atleast some of you, and caused some to ponder these ideas. I would appreciate feedback and your opinion, which is the whole purpose of the thread. After all its not a theorry, its topics for consideration. Don't worry about the fact that I spent well over 2 1/2 hours researching and formulating the topics that you have read.

Thank you,
GOOGLEPOX

You shiveriring isles point :

Why would a mortal becoming a god be a major problem? This has been done a few times (King of Worms, Almsivi, Dagoth Ur, Tiber Septim ). And in this case nothing much has really changed. Sheogorath is still Sheogorath even if he was the player. A god can take many forms.

I dont think theNerevarine has anything to do with the future. Characters from previous games have so far just made some literary appearances and that's it.

How do we know he became a god? He got 'lost'

I don't use the term "god" lightly, (The only event of a mortal becoming a god that is similar to the CoC/Sheo ascension [if you would call it that], is Tiber Septim's ascension to Talos; that is by the will of the gods, or so I believe. For Almsivi and Dagoth- Ur, they used Kagrenac's tools by themselves, that was not by a god's will. King of Worms I lack info on, but I've read that he ascended to godhood upon recieving the Mantella.) But here we're talking about Daedric Princes, which is unheard of for a mortal to replace the Prince, let alline the fact that It was Jyggalag/Sheogorath's will to have the CoC replace hs Sheogorath part.

Almsivi appeared stronger than Deadra I believe. They were able to trick them and keep them at bay so they were powerful enough gods. And once they became gods they were gods from the beginning of time. One can get over the notion of time when one is god. And the beilief of their people also shaped their powers even though this has waned recently.

The fact the Sheogorath has willed the player to become him doesnt change that Sheogorath is still Sheogorath. Nothing has changed in my opinion. A "god" that has existed still exists, his outer form may have changed but the notion of madness which he still represents is still the same. If you want, Sheogorath is madness incarnate and this "force" still exists but now you are that.. His previously mortal shell has no consequence.

At least this is how i think of it.

Lady Nerevar presented a http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1096021-arden-sul/page__hl__sheogorath with the whole CoC and Sheogorath bit.

An interesting read indeed. So the end of the world is near by all acounts then.. Unless something renews it

I am pretty sure the bad guy will be Aduin, the nordic version of Akatosh, or have some involvement of Alduin, and the PC will be the new Shezzarine to act as the strong arm of the dragonborn, like many emperors past (Pelinal with Alessia and Wulfhart with Tiber as the most well known examples).

I have read Cipher 8's post and still hold judgement until the game comes out. Though do you think that (unless they really want to finish everything with this installment) perhaps if the story of TES V does involve the world being slowly dimished in its divinity and Alduin is coming to destroy the world then we will manage to convince him as an aspect of Lorkhan to re-ignite the divine in the world by possibly sacrificing his heart again? This is based on the argument that Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same side of a different coin. So we still have the world, the towers that are slowly being destroyed (and hence destabilising the world) no longer matter that much and we now have a new powerful tower/Amulet of Kings or something along those lines.

I thought that every time a person has became a god,a dragon break has happened?Repeatedly messing up the timeline would mess up Tamriel,no?

"Unheard of" can just as easily mean that it happens all the time, and nobody knows about it.


Besides. What does the will of a god matter when you can kick that god's cheeky ass [ref. Almsivi/Dagoth Ur, who could take any other god out there].

Yeah it was the first time a mortal became a daedric prince or mantled a daedric prince. And you're right, the only other time a mortal became a full god was with Tiber. In other incidences it was partial godhood through a god's artifact, and in all those other instances manipulation or removal of the artifact removed whatever "godhood" said character's attained, or they were partial gods to begin with (Worm King, Morihaus sp?, Umaril). So you're right it was unprecedented outside of Tiber Septim and the first time it happened with a daedra lord.

You're forgetting one important little lesson from Arena/Post-Arena Literature: Barenziah and Tharn had a child. He may or may not have been Helseth.

I did miss that... Do you have a link to where i can read up on that? Or is there barely anything on it?

Wasn't that with Symmachus?

Barenziah had multiple lovers, and multiple children.

I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the whole Nightingale bit of Biography of Barenziah. I'm too tired right now to go back and comb it for you.

I think that that guy Barenziah is with till she... meets... Therris should show up in some manner in Skyrim. like his family farm should be massive or he should have awesome armor.

Arguably, there somethings I like would point out.

For one thing, I would expect that that Mehrune's Razor might return as a basic Artifact Quest Award, since one cannot really kill all the "cultist" that follow the Daedric Prince of Destruction, not to mention it appear in Daggerfall and Morrowind beforehand. We then go to the next Artifact, the Oghma Infinium. It was on the hands of the Agent (Daggerfall PC) in a possible quest in an earlier time, and like what happens in Oblivion, it just helps the hero become a demi-god. I don't think there is any significant reason it follow to the plot other that it is just an Artifact Award.

For canon effect, Bethesda cannot say the PC was in a Guild without screwing someone's else PC. That is why there is hardly any mention of whats going on, Guild-Wise, in all the previous game. This goes along with all Non-Expansion DLC. Knights of the Nine is practically borderline of whether the Hero did the quest or not.

In regards to Mannimarco, there may be a chances that the Mannimarco ya met may or may not be an imposer (my preferred theory that he is an imposer; they nerf this badassness ten time over to a wimpy elf). Then there a fact that Mannimarco is already (un)dead and ascended to Godhood.

For Morrowind, there a reason the story about Nerevarine was given. They have to put Nerevarine in a boat just so they cannot tell us what happen to him/her without screwing someone's else PC (ie I would be piss if someone made Nerevarine a Orc Thief as canon to the overall Franchise). This same goes with Eternal One (Arena) as s/he disappear from history, the Agent (Daggerfall) got stomp by Megatron but the fact that there were 7 ending happening all at once might be a chance the event was averted, and most likely the Champion of Cyrodiil (Oblivion) would be stuck inside the Madgod for a long time. Its this vagueness that help the PC "choose" their ending with the given template.

But the guild plot-lines do happen. They just don't tell who did all that.

If you've played those games then you don't need Bethesda to tell you what happened to the heroes. You should already know, afterall, they're your heroes - the game 'ending' doesn't change this.

Of course, but not to a point about who did it or actually tell us the end result of it. The worst example of this is that controversial book, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Myth_or_Menace%3F in Oblivion. Basically, it tell us that the PC did not join the Thieves or Fighter Guild. The book is better off gone or retcon out of existence, like a couple other things that should be nicky picky.


I know that. Its basically help two things. The "ending" of where the PC is at would stop any request by some random Player of seeing the hero again in the future installment. Those who are attach to their toon can make a loophole of getting their toon out the situation. Everyone wins.

The CoC is Bendu Olo, an imperial male. I found that in CS...

Yes but that could just be a name put there for a name's sake.