The Trial of Vivec never happened.

Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:08 am

Honestly? Yeah

But I bet people cant handle seeing the flaws, pity..

The only flaw I see is in your assumption that the Trial takes place during the Oblivion Crisis. After that premise is refuted, your argument breaks down into "I think it svcks, and therefore it's wrong, and the Loveletter should be too!".
I mean, seriously, this threatens to overshadow my level of ignorance (which amounts to over (1+0+0+8)*1000), and we can't have that. Only I get to make myself into a various assortment of asses around here.
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Chloe Yarnall
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:42 am

This thread made me chuckle.

As for the canon level of the Loveletter and the Trial, they both are. The Loveletter has, as Lady N said, either been averted by the actions of Sul and Vuhon or, also likely, was simply us blowing the events out of proportion. I've done it before, and prophecy never has a sense of scale. As for the trial, aside from being several long-standing series writers working in tandem on a single project outside a specific game (alas that it doesn't happen so often any longer) it does provide as good an explanation as any for the disappearance of Vivec. If you don't like it, assume it was one of the other ideas presented in Oblivion and be done.
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Euan
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:16 am

Right.. Let me start off - yes this is abit based, I dont really like MK's writings (Namely the Fifth Era Love Letter and the Trial of Vivec) - but I discovered something yesterday, I quote:

The preceding interests more people. Loremaster Celarus, Gosleigh and Divayth Fyr of the Psijics among them, also worth noted is the presence of the Emperor Uriel Septim VII himself. He comes and speaks to the Council, "I speak here only because it is my duty to speak for Tamriel and the Empire. I have already placed my faith and sanction in the integrity and authority of the court. The court is a thing of the Law, The Empire is the Law, and the Law is Holy. I would only say... let no mortal man presume to judge this immortal Vivec. Such things as these eyes have seen -- such things as MY eyes have seen -- these things are weighed in the hands of the Gods. That Vivec has chosen to place himself in the hands of the Law pleases us, and does him honor. His acknowledgement and acceptance of the Law brings him within our countenance. We neither smile, nor frown, but say... let Justice and the Law be done."

So, that tells us Uriel Septim was present.. But how comes that he can be present if Vivec disappeared during the Oblivion Crisis? He dies just before Kvatch is attacked.

Now you may say: "Yeah, but they could've done it before he died."

And my replies:

  • As mentioned above, this happened -during- the Oblivion Crisis.
  • Azura is still fine and well - Her shrine quest lets no shadowfall on her whereabouts.


Now we can hope the Love Letter isn't a functional part of lore either.

As mentioned above? You mean as YOU mentioned above. The texts say NOTHING about the Oblivion Crisis. The only logical conclusion is that they happened before the crisis, which would also make sense because the trials happened far before we even knew about Oblivion being in the works.

As others have mentioned MK was only involved in it, he was not the sole creator. Many, many people were involved, and to call them all liars is to call just about every lore developer a liar.
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Lewis Morel
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:16 am

Honestly? Yeah

But I bet people cant handle seeing the flaws, pity..


Yah, cool story bro.

A little study on the topic of subjectivity might do you some good.
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Bek Rideout
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:24 am

He can't stand weirdness in his fantasy worlds, strange as that may seem.

Considering Haskill can stand in for Sheogorath at his shrine whilst he's away, possibly one of Azura's minions with a similar voice answered the calls to make it look like she was home? It would be very unlike Azura to let on that one of her plans had gone awry.


Although this is irrelevant: if Azura wasn't able to attend to her shrine, she wouldn't even need a minion with a similar voice. After all, she's a Daedra Lord. She doesn't necessarily have any specific pitch and tone; she can sound however she likes.
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louise hamilton
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:41 am

Unfortunatley, I find it hard to belive simply due to the way Azura is perceived as cowering before the might of Vivec? She was out to destroy everything he created and lift the ban on the lies. Doesn't seem fitting ?
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Mariaa EM.
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:17 pm

Unfortunatley, I find it hard to belive simply due to the way Azura is perceived as cowering before the might of Vivec? She was out to destroy everything he created and lift the ban on the lies. Doesn't seem fitting ?

She manipulated her way into a minor coup by poking holes in prophecies and exhausting a line of weak mortals. Not really a dominant force on the Mundus. Then, revenge. Seems fitting enough.
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Euan
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:50 am

Unfortunatley, I find it hard to belive simply due to the way Azura is perceived as cowering before the might of Vivec? She was out to destroy everything he created and lift the ban on the lies. Doesn't seem fitting ?


Daedra hate the waters of oblivion. It's a pretty terrible place to them and changes them. So anyone knowing their neonymic along with the protonymic is pretty terrifying to them. When used in combination, their energy is drained away and they are banished to oblivion.(The end of Battlespire demonstrates this with good ol Dagon)
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Donald Richards
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:15 am

Is it worse to die and be reborn not knowing who and what you were in your past life, or to die but having your soul remain conscious of the surroundings, feeling an ever present and gnawing cold eating away at your willpower with all of your senses completely deprived?

The daedra may be "immortal" but wandering the waters of Oblivion is an extremely nerve wrecking experience, which is why lesser daedra flock to the princes for protection and fear their retribution.
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meghan lock
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:36 am

Unfortunatley, I find it hard to belive simply due to the way Azura is perceived as cowering before the might of Vivec? She was out to destroy everything he created and lift the ban on the lies. Doesn't seem fitting ?

I somewhat agree, and I both love and hate that part of the text. On the one hand, is the power of a Daedra Prince(ss) not at least equal to that of pretty much any other active being in TES lore? On the other, it's a reminder of how very complex and fallible the natures of the setting's "gods" are, and of how much mastery can be gained and how many changes wrought by the hand of a (once-) mortal.

More on-topic: isn't pretty much any Elder Scrolls fiction MK writes considered to be canon? And if not... why not!?
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Undisclosed Desires
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:19 pm

Now you may say: "Yeah, but they could've done it before he died."

And my replies:

  • As mentioned above, this happened -during- the Oblivion Crisis.
  • Azura is still fine and well - Her shrine quest lets no shadowfall on her whereabouts.


Now we can hope the Love Letter isn't a functional part of lore either.


I can take or leave a lot of MK's stuff. His contributions to the universe can be overstated, so I somewhat understand your frustations. That said, if you're going to make a point that hinges around chronology, the first step would probably be to prove the chronology. Instead of finding evidence that Uriel was at the trial, you might look for evidence that it happened after Oblivion. I'm not seeing any.

As for Azura, her speech in Oblivion was recorded on a 1984 TEAC dual deck cassette recorder slightly before the events of Daggerfall and placed near the shrine by her followers. If you listen closely you can still hear elements of the Men Without Hats mixtape she recorded over. This is confirmed in the Loveletter.
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Crystal Clear
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Is it worse to die and be reborn not know who and what you were in your past life, or to die but having your soul remain conscious of the surroundings, feeling an ever present and gnawing cold eating away at your willpower with all of your senses completely deprived?

The daedra may be "immortal" but wandering the waters of Oblivion is an extremely nerve wrecking experience, which is why lesser daedra flock to the princes for protection and fear their retribution.

That's a fun spin on things. I like it.

More on-topic: isn't pretty much any Elder Scrolls fiction MK writes considered to be canon? And if not... why not!?
The ideas expressed and used in them will be recycled (usually by him when he writes officially), or they're expressing ideas not explicitly in-game, but forming the backbone of the world described in the mysterious filing-cabinet of Dev-Design-Documents. So, they're as good as canon, but not technically.
A more hardliner here will say "Yes, it absolutely is canon," while an Anti-MKer will say "They're nice, but no they're not.
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carrie roche
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:09 am

Others will say canon is simply Todd Howard and team's Tamriel, not ours.
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kat no x
 
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Post » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:15 am

The problem with this thread is not that someone wants to discuss non-game lore (for want of a better term), but that the tone on both sides is confrontational and - in some cases - disrespectful.

Telling people they "can't handle" your opinion is extremely rude, and any reactions in a similar vein are just as uncalled for.
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Kim Kay
 
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