When I was playing oblivion today, I realised how poorly swimming was. It really needs an overhaul. Why can you cast a fireball underwater?

Can you chance the poll so that we can vote for more than one option?

Sorry. I thought I had already selected it. I've changed it.

• Armour weighs you down - No thanks, just because even if you take it off you are still carrying it... somehow.
  
• Can swim faster at the lost of stamina - No thanks, you can't really "Sprint" while swimming.
  
• Bodies eventually sink - Bodies actually sink first in water, then float up after gas builds up in the corpse from the decomposition
  
• More life in water (fish) - Hell yeah
  
• Water weeds, plants etc - Hell yeah
  
• The deeper you go down, the darker it gets - Hell yeah
  
• Fire (even magic) does not work under water - I'm torn here. I still think magic fire should, at least touch spells. How about boiling water?
  
• Fighting under water should be overhauled - Yes
  
• Diving etc - I have always thought that after you fall enough where the game knows you will take fall damage you should begin to flail. Maybe over water you should go into a dive?
  
• Splashes from jumping in, falling in - Yes
  
• Armour, clothes, hair etc gets soaked - Yes
  
• Others (explain) - Fix the poll for multiple options Edit: nevermind.

some of these things already existed in OB, like the spells not working in water (ranged ones) and even touch fire spells didn't work I think.

Voted for most of them but these are the ones I would really like to see.

Add "swimming in freezing water causes hypothermia", and I'd be sold. Really, we are going to potentially be swimming in water fed by glaciers. I've done that for real, and I couldn't take it for more than 10 minutes (and only then because I was bullheaded) and I was cold for hours afterward.

About armor weighing you down... I remember I played Morrowind with a house rule, every time I had to swim I basically removed and dropped EVERYTHING except for a small dagger and maybe a ring or two. It was very fun when you'd get in trouble with enemies that normally would have been no trouble to defeat... although I must admit it was quite a chore to remove and drop everything!

Well you can't. You can't cast ranged spells or use a bow underwater.

However, it could use some improvements, like slower swimming under certain conditions. Though, armor doesn't really make you sink to the bottom of the body of water unless your wearing some massively bulky armor, mainly because your normal bouyancy plus the air that would get trapped between you and the armor would allow some more bouyancy. So maybe orcish armor or something will make you sink, I don't know.

Argonians should swim like Crocodiles or Water Monitors, really fast and importantly fun.
There should be bouyancy on a naked character so that they float to the surface, but heavy armor would drag you down.
More docile fish, hundreds of them and then only one or two Slaughterfish.

- Armour weighs you down
In theory, yes. But requiring the PC to unequip [heavier] armour to swim effectively, yet not drop all their carried gear -- which likely weighs more than any worn armour -- would be inconsistent. As the latter would be a very awkward and prohibitive gameplay mechanic, no to this one. It'd be nice if there were specific super-heavy items (boots) which allowed you to sink to the bottom of a body of water, walking slowly rather than swimming.

- Can swim faster at the lost of stamina
Absolutely, yes. Effectively a "sprint" action while swimming (may actually be in the game?).

- Bodies eventually sink
Undecided. Would have to be creature- and gear-dependent.

- More life in water (fish)
Yes. I believe fish are confirmed to be in the game (in rivers; and so presumably in lakes/sea also).

- Water weeds, plants etc
Yes. Necessary for a detailed and attractive gameworld; likely to be in the game.

- The deeper you go down, the darker it gets
Yes, within reason. Sun and moonlight filtering through the water would be nice...

- Fire (even magic) does not work under water
No. Ideally, fire-based Destruction magic would become superheated steam/water and harm susceptible foes as normal. I'll be happy if my character's torch is doused with a satisfying hiss when plunged into water, though.

- Fighting under water should be overhauled
Undecided; any underwater-specific combat I could re-design would be too elaborate for there to be any realistic chance of it being in the game (I'm thinking animation resources). But Todd et al are possibly smarter than I am, so yes, in theory.

- Diving etc
Yes, if by diving you mean a specific action/mechanic whereby characters can dive to a given depth (determined by fatigue/attributes?) rapidly without the need for directional control.

- Splashes from jumping in, falling in
Yes, and likely to be in Skyrim unless I've misunderstood the statement that "water physics" are in the game.

- Armour, clothes, hair etc gets soaked
Yes, assuming that this would be some kind of temporary shader/emitter effect or whatnot.

I never liked being able to swim in heavy armor. But I understand the "fun" fator of being able to do just that and that many people would rather go with that, so I would like to see all your suggestions being integrated in a survival/hardcoe mode instead.

I just have to say I think it's funny that your questioning how a migical fireball could work underwater... we all know that a completely realistic magical fireball wouldn't work underwater!

Sarcasm aside. I think magic (fireballs) should still work underwater, maybe just a little different? I voted for about 3/4 of the options. I think much better real feeling water and water combat, etc would be very nice.

The least they could do is make you look soaking wet when you climb out, and it slowly dry's away over like 30 seconds... There are a few games that do that, but I cannot think of them.

While I would not like it duplicated I think D&D handled things like this right. Fire magic did not work underwater. Lightning magic turned into an area of effect, other magic worked differently as well. Basically come up with some spells that get stopped cold, some spells that are not effected and some spells that are altered. They should have some correlation to reality, but since it is magic not a work exactly like the similar effect does in reality.

Sorry to be repetitive, but I have to play the AC card on this one, too. Aside from the combat issue, take a look at how swimming mechanics, effects, and even clothes being wet works in Assassins Creed 2 and ACB. Perfect examples of some of what the OP discussed.

Of course I'm in doubt about how much (if any) of this will be in Skyrim. I voted for almost all of it, aside from bodies sinking, because they should float and move realistically until you leave the area and then when you return, the body is gone.

Similar to Red Dead Redemption? Except you couldn't swim in that, but the main character did begin to flail around (ragdoll-style) after falling for a while.
That would be interesting to see in 1st person

To many "ifs" in the equation to vote on it, but I'll try to answer the suggestions and throw in some new ones.

Armour weighs you down:
Not armor, but your general encumbrance. Pretty much based on buoyancy. And you stay afloat by "swimming upwards". This means that in order to stay afloat, the heavier you are the slower your forward vector becomes. A fighter will use his added strength to overcome his weight. A thief can use his added stamina for prolonged stamina effect. A mage can use his "levitation" (not as it used to be, see below) spell to thrust him upward to reduce his weight.

Can swim faster at the lost of stamina :
See above. Sure, if you don't suffer an encumbrance penalty, stamina could be traded in for speed (like sprint). But I typically see it possible for developed monks and acrobats carrying very little weight.

Bodies eventually sink:
Also, see above. Or did you mean dead bodies?

More life in water (fish):
This goes without saying.

Water weeds, plants etc:
Ditto. Algae, plankton, and corals would rock.

The deeper you go down, the darker it gets:
Nice idea, haven't thought about this. But also water should vary in clearness.
* Yellow sulfuric in volcanic tundra. Low vis.
* Brown mud in sewers. Low vis.
* Whiteish frowning water in hotsprings. Low vis.
* Whiteish river rapids. Medium vis.
* Clear mountain water. High vis.
* Blueish seawater. Medium vis.
* Blueish glacier cave water. High vis.
Where visibility also varies with weather (where appropriate) and velocity/stir.

Fire (even magic) does not work under water:
Already in. At least for torches and ranged spells. But you could add "no sitting on the seabed performing alchemy" to the list, as that is currently possible Repairing weapons too.

Fighting under water should be overhauled:
Ehm, yeah, I guess. I don't have any ideas though. Maybe just scrap underwater fighting and do it the FONV way, like LakeLurks following you on shore and attacking you there? Anything else could be based on puzzles for big sea monsters or even fish out the smaller enemy fishes. If cold, we may have a substantial new "enemy" to worry about. If someone have means to do underwater fighting that feels natural, I'm listening.

Diving etc:
I'll have to say no on this one. Mostly for technical reasons. How do you initialize a dive? Special control combo? Complex. Jump that detects you'll land in water? How about acrobats being able to redirect their airtime? Which in real life translates to more control over where you want to land which is impossible in a game without air control.

Splashes from jumping in, falling in:
Isn't this in already? If not, then sure, very little cost. But I want the splash to vary according to the speed I "hit" the water with. If I'm stealthy and feel the water with my toe, I don't want a massive splash. In audio specially, most games get this wrong.

Armour, clothes, hair etc gets soaked:
Yes, both visually and physically. Physical wetness adds to the wet acting as a hypothermia multiplier, and it takes some time to dry up. Not needed to add weight.

Swimming in freezing water causes hypothermia:
Sort of. The location, weather, season, and time of day determines the temperature on dry land. In water, temperature and thus hypothermia points are gathered according only to location and season, but are typically more than on dry land. So after a cold bath you have gathered quite a bit of "hypothermia points" (similar to Fallout radiation). Back on land, it will continue to cool you down based on the land temperature, with decaying wetness and wind acting as multiplicators. Note that there are locations that does not pose the same threat. Hot springs should also be available to get rid of hypothermia points effectively. This is just a general outline, I haven't fully tested it in spreadsheet yet. But at worst conditions, it shouldn't really feel much different from the worst radiation conditions in Fallout. We only need a new enemy to respect and worry about, not a killer unless you keep being stupid.

Others (explain):
Repeated and/or moderate hypothermia causes disease - common flu. I mean, in how many games do you actually uncontrollably sneeze? Could be an obstacle to sneaking. If hypothermia is part of the normal game, this could be an expansion making it to hardcoe mode.

Freeze and thaw water, especially still water and never sea water. Walking on ice should have decreased friction.

As for levitation, think of it as pointing where you want the front of a rocket engine to point and you were sitting on it. It completely replaces feather, jump, slow falling, water walking, and levitation based on your skill level. But at no point will you be able to use levitation as a means of travel. And since you need to direct your thrust, it's unsuitable for fighting. If you want to reach a ledge or house door that is hard to get to, you better prepare by making yourself light. I'm tired of mages always getting the super convenient way of everything (which is why I don't play them, they're just boring now). Constant drain, no regenerative - prepare for a consequence like everyone else.

Now, combined a little - let's have some plain old *FUN*... Water freezing in your left hand. Levitation (thruster) in your right hand. Freeze water as you hurl down the ice you create. But you already was in for a swim, so you're cold AND wet. At these speeds, the wetness and wind chill factor (due speed) now presents a much quicker gathering on hypothermia points. Probably should have waited until the wetness wore off. But of course, Skyrim being so small and all, I don't see larger real sized lakes remotely possible...

I also meant to add an option to drink the water to replenish you stamina and health. It would depend on how clean the water is though...

The fire thing was in Oblivion.

I voted yes for all but other, diving and drinking.

# Armour weighs you down - Yes.
It's kinda silly to go equipped as tank into the water and that it doesn't affect you somehow.
Should be same on land.

# Can swim faster at the lost of stamina - Something like sprint, but in water?

# Bodies eventually sink - I voted for this one, but don't actually care.

# More life in water (fish) - YESYESYESYESYESYES!!!

# Water weeds, plants etc - *read answer above*

# The deeper you go down, the darker it gets - I like this, but am not sure if this would work that good actually.
I can only judge it based on previous games, but it was already hard enough to look while underwater in Oblivion and there isn't need to make it harder in my opinion.

# Fire (even magic) does not work under water - Maybe.
In this case, they should make all 3 destruction elements have special reactions while in water so mages are not helpless little buggers while swimming.

# Fighting under water should be overhauled - Maybe just make motions a bit slower and that's that.

# Diving etc - ?

# Splashes from jumping in, falling in - Why, yes... why not?

# Armour, clothes, hair etc gets soaked - Yes, but it should affect us only visually and have no effect on gameplay itself.

# Others (explain) - Ships and Nord pirates!

# Swimming in freezing water causes hypothermia - Yes (plain and simple).

# Being able to drink the water - Yes, don't see a reason why not.
Still, there should be a possibility of catching a disease.

large sea creatures like whales.