In order to keep from derailing other topics I've started this thread.

Where I'm coming from is essentially this. There seem to be many paths towards enlightenment and transcendence in the TES universe (The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph). However, as laid out by The Loveletter, these are all paths towards the same thing, that is The Eternal I, The New Man, who becomes the Amaranth.

My general question is whether there is only goal to be sought after. There are these multiple paths which lead to this same thing. But are there other paths which lead to something entirely different, some other goal besides the Amaranth; not necessarily better than the Amaranth, but distinct from it?


______________________________

While I'm here, where is the line between achieving CHIM (or becoming a successful part of the Enantiomorph or fulfilling the Endeavor) and actually becoming the Amaranth? Because if "there is no evidence that either Talos nor Vehk achieved Amaranth"(http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1160383-shor-son-of-shor/page__view__findpost__p__17182217), but they were successful at achieving CHIM (as referenced by the Mythic Dawn Commentaries and the Trial), then being successful at one of the paths doesn't mean being successful at reaching the end goal. This means that there is a gap between achieving CHIM (or gaining the Prolix Tower, or becoming the Numidium*) and achieving Amaranth**. What is that gap?


*If its true that being successful at one of the paths doesn't necessitate reaching the end goal (ie, Vivec or Talos achieving CHIM but not reaching Amaranth), then could it be equally true that the Dwemer succeeded at their goals with the Numidium, but similarly didn't make the next step to Amaranth?

**The "I ARE ALL WE" in the Loveletter seems to be in reference to Amaranth rather than CHIM. Although the idea of CHIM seems to fit with this quote, can the achiever of CHIM actually say I ARE ALL WE, since it's in reference to the Amaranth and those who have achieved CHIM haven't necessarily achieved Amaranth? Are people mistaken in constantly attributing I ARE ALL WE to CHIM?

______________________________

Lastly, from http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1159390-what-happened-to-the-dwarves/page__view__findpost__p__17182265, there seem to be three areas needing defining. To transcend the world. To surpass the world. And to better the existence (whether of the world or for yourself I don't know). And which of these do the different paths fit into? From the context I'd guess that CHIM transcends the world, as in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1160383-shor-son-of-shor/page__st__80 I made argument as to why CHIM doesn't seem to better the existence of the world, though it might both transcend and surpass it.


Wow, I had alot more questions than I thought I did.

If I may add another question to this already long slew of questions, how are The Numidium, The Endeavor, The Prolix Tower, CHIM, The Enantiomorph, etc each related to the New Man? I get how Chim fits into the 'i are all we', the others not so much.

Not trying to hijack the topic, just thought it fit in with the rest. So that I don't feel like I'm completely detracting I'll say this in regards to the definitions part. I see transcend, surpass and better the existence in this light: transcending is getting beyond it so as to leave it behind (becoming different than it), surpassing it is becoming better than it (not entirely different than it, just better), and bettering the existence of it means just that, to make the world a better place (possibly through making yourself better, and by correlation, it).

Then again, me and the duckies are sometimes wrong.

:turtle:

If there are, we don't know them (yet).




Creation consists of an infinite series of identical entities who believe themselves to be distinct from their counterpart (enantiomorphs). In essence, there is no such thing as the enantiomorph; it is simply a name for a pattern, which is sometimes capitalized for the more famous instances of that pattern. An entity that succeeds at the Endeavour/sees the Tower/knows CHIM... can step outside of that endless repeating structure ("he has no double"), while still retaining some sort of existence in it.

The Amaranth would be a state in which such an entity becomes the source of a new creation ("which by pattern would mean an echo of Mundus"). To put it in a simple metaphor (others are useless): what would happen if a person someone dreamed up started dreaming in their own right. And so on.

Amaranth, as I understand it (which is to say I don't), is not only to see the identity of God and keep ones own but to supplant Him.

The http://www.imperial-library.info/content/more-psijic-endeavor is the basis of the teachings of Veloth, who led the ancestors of the Chimer-Dunmer to Veloth. The http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower is the secret power of the world, which Lorkhan discovered in a sideways glance whilst trying to escape. The goal of the Endeavor is to apprehend the Tower, the purpose of apprehending the Tower is to achieve CHIM. CHIM is triumph over the world within the world. The Enantiomorph is an enactment of the schism inherent within Lorkhan, and further still. The Numidium was an tool-for-re-imagining a people, and subsequently to reshape an empire. (There is more to be said, perhaps, on the union of individual and collective interprise.)

The New Man is a promise yet unmade, but is umbraged whenever audacity bleeds into beneficence.

A certain challenge, as the universe is braided with symbolism of the body. All the people are human - even the Hist can be humans* - and so the purveyors of an alternative would need all-together different bodies.** Chim is as removed from comprehension, as Afghanistan is to a Cyrodilic.

The Sload come to mind.


* "can be" should be "are," I believe
** "different bodies" should be read as "new and alien physiology"

Those help with the main part of the second question, thanks.

That also helps answer the third question, since that would in my mind serve to transcend or surpass the world, but wouldn't necessarily better the world's existence since it's starting it's own world, or replacing the current godhead, which seems to be about the same thing.

So if the Endeavor and the Tower are just pieces of the puzzle that is CHIM, why are they listed as distinct paths along side CHIM in the Loveletter?

I'm not arguing your definition, I know that's how Vehk's Teachings describes them, I'm just curious as to why the Loveletter separates them out.

The Dwemer come to mind.

Edit: Sorry, that was supposed to be in reply to something else.

Wow. I swear I didn't see Lady N's post. One of those eventualities, I suppose.