So, I was just talking to a friend about Skyrim and we both agreed they need to stop streamlining these [censored] games. Sorry for the explicative but it is unnecessary to make a game that is unique for it's complexity, far too simple. I think Morrowind was a great game because of the sheer number of things to do. One was literally thrown into the world with no clue what to do, or where to go. You had to make a life for yourself, and you were required to figure out how to get there to do it. Removing key features such as magic, weapons, and abilities is just absurd. Also, the exclusion of crossbows is just silly... Really? you can't make a horizontal crossbow...? It just doesn't make sense to remove crossbows. I understand throwing and spears because they require so much more work, but it's just laziness on the developers part to remove these things that give the world a sense of reality.

Imagine coming upon a group of indigenous people who ran around in loincloths and shook spears above their heads.

or how about a group of hunters tracking a bear, and then fending it off with their spears.

how about an assassin with a throwing dagger up his sleeve "Just in case."

Or, better yet an assassin on a rooftop, clad in ninja like clothing with a small crossbow ready to pick off his unsuspecting victim.

how about a guard with a spear held horizontally trying to push back a crowd of angry citizens that want solace in a city about to be sieged?

In my humble and honest opinion there is so much lost from the game when you remove weapons, skills and armor pieces. Leave simple games for simple series, do not tone down a series known for its grandeur just to appease the sniffling little whelps who can't handle a real RPG!

Personally, I don't see much use complaining about it until I play the game and see what it is like. They have already said they are striving to make the game more unique than Oblivion. Sometimes things get removed from games to allow other features to be expanded.

I don't necessarily think adding tons of weapons Will make Skyrim a better game. I do however think streamlining is useful as long as you do it in the right areas.Like the skill list for example I don't need 500 skills that could easily fit into more categories. The dialogue system is something that should never be streamlined because it's an essential part of an RPG. I think they are trying to fix things that aint broken.

I want real complexity. Not skin deep complexity by having multiple different weapons that really just work kind of similar, weapons need to be more different than that, that why I like their new approach to the different weapons. Getting thrown into the world with no clue what to do, doesn't seem like something which would add complexity, I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic. Also, I'm pretty sure it's general knowledge that a lot of stuff was cut from Oblivion because they ran into trouble with the technology, and then with the deadline. There was a list somewhere of a [censored]load of stuff they had intended to be in.

No I don't believe TES is becoming to mainstreamed, because it doesn't even make sense. Mainstream and streamlined isn't the same. If everybody suddenly liked turned-based strategy games, than that would be mainstream. Saying TES is getting streamlined because of missing weapons and spells doesn't even make sense either, because there's nothing unappealing about being able to chose between 100 weapons. Everybody who played Oblivion wants more weapons and spells, nobody asked for less weapons or spells, the developers didn't make less weapons in order to streamline, I mean how does that make sense, no one wants less weapons, there's no one to cater to with that option. I think the weapons and spells that wasn't in, was not a decision based on appeasing some imaginary demographic, but because [censored] happened.

Having a lot of skills which are uninteresting and obsolete is not complexity. It's just bad game design. If they succeed in making the perks system work as they have said, that will add true depth to every skill and make this game more complex than previous once, while at the same time being easier to get into and easier to navigate.

Now I loved Morrowind more than any game I've ever played but I think Bethesda is moving the character development in the right direction. My only worry is about the depth of the lore, world and characters which was severely lacking in Oblivion. But streamlining the character creation and development is something TES could use in my opinion and Bethesda is taking a fine approach.

I voted the first, but honestly, I think we are too late to change anything this late in development.

todd is a console player.. i dont think we'll ever get that much complexity again, since hardcoe rpgs is only for us pc gamers.. i'll be surprised tho if we did get a game with as much complexity as morrowind.

I've never really understood the "dumbing down" argument against RPGs. I've never encountered what I'd call a truly complex or intelligent CRPG. For the sake of discussion, could someone make me a list of them?

I also get the impression that those who demand complexity (which invariably equates to more content) have never tried to develop a game before, or even an extensive mod project. It's incredibly easy to talk the talk, but walking the walk is challenging, time-consuming and often highly complex... all of the things RPGs themselves are supposed to be, I'm told. Do people realise that to include crossbows, all of the characters capable of wielding them have to be given crossbow firing animations? Game content doesn't spring magically from the ground the moment some would-be game designer demands a new feature; an army of artists and programmers have to spend hours to make it happen.

If the counter-argument is then that the focus should not be on visual and technical elements, but rather content, then I have to wonder why these detractors aren't making their own games in glorious 2d, or else playing with pen and paper.

As far as story and quest writing goes, that's another matter (and another skillset) altogether; it's harder to find really good writers than it is to find really good artists, if video games are any indication. Bethesda seem to have a few, though...

Disclaimer: This post assumes we're talking about Bethesda Game Studios' games. If we were to discuss certain other games I'd probably agree that they've been written quite stupidly, and "streamlined" to the point of laziness.

I think TES is far from becoming mainstream. I'm sure once Skyrim will be out, people who never played rpgs will have a hard time figuring out what to do (like many of us the first time we played a TES game). If you compare TES to other rpgs such as fable or dragon age, you can see it doesn't have the same level of accessibility and definetely not the same level of depth.

Sure, Skyrim looks different than MW, there's less skills and no spears or throwing weapons, but changing thing doesn't mean dumbing down the game. People need to understand that TES is simply evolving like the rest of the gaming market and I'm pretty confident that bethesda is doing the right things to make TES move on.

What does this have to do with complexity at all? Oh, I get it this is a well hidden "Bring back spears" thread, smooth.

I'm pretty sure they're not including spears and throwing weapons in the game, because if they would they want to do it properly. In New Vegas there were throwing spears but they felt more like harpoon guns than something throwable.
Sam with throwing knives, in Morrowind it was like a really slow dartgun and it looked pretty silly. It was okay at the time, but today we need more.

I'm a console player and I enjoyed the depth of Morrowind.

One thing to consider about Skyrim is that they're adding complexity through the perk system. Adding a perk system on top of a skill system is more complex than simply adding in more skills. The perk system would probably include Morrowind-style distinctions such as Long/Short Blade, Axes/Blunts, Light/Medium/Heavy Armor, and so on. They might also add new distinctions, such as Fire/Frost/Shock specializations for Destruction wizards. 18 skills + 200 perks is more complex than 27 skills, hands-down.

"Real RPG" != lots of armor/weapon pieces. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

You are right of course about the degree of complexity and fun these things can bring to a game and I agree, I want to have Morrowind's weapons, armor pieces, enchanting and spellmaking back.

@ fearless Hero

Morrowind, Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 1&2 just off the top of my head. And planescape: Torment although I mean that as a different kind of complexity that went beyond game mechanics.

:blink:



This comment literally almost made me fall out of my chair with laughter. "hardcoe rpgs is only for us pc gamers.."
:rofl:
Oh god, crying right now. I really am.

i think the perk system balanced out the less skills. you can add more weapons without having to worry about skills, you simply need to add perks.

It looks to me as though they've simplified in some areas only to make the game more complex in others. I don't think we'll really be able to tell how things balance out until the game releases. Or, at least, before we've seen a lot more gameplay.

Voted the last one since the poll reeks of bias...where is the option for "I don't think Skyrim's skill system is simplified"? There may be technically less skills, but they just took away the superfluous ones and added them as perks...they're still there, just not as a useless skill. The options of this poll try to make everyone who disagrees with the OP out to be a casual gamer.

I'm really hoping that the outcome of the changes will be to make the system less "gamey" while retaining the basic philosophy of improving skills through use. In Oblivion my characters almost always had blade as a major skill, but ended up mace users not because my character concept changed, but because using a minor skill allowed me to increase my strength multiplier without leveling prematurely. If the new system makes it less desirable to slaughter rats and mudcrabs using non-favored skills, I think it will be a good thing.

I'm all for complexity in a game, and an avid supporter of Morrowind-style gameplay where skill choices are "meaningful", but even I think that the poll questions were horribly biased. I had to vote for the "generic" "Skyrim is coming" choice, because I didn't feel that any of the existing options were right. Option 1 started out fine, but got worse as it went, to where it didn't reflect my opinion anymore. 3 made some sense, but not at the expense of 1.

While the removal of Spears from the series was a moderate "negative" in my book, it's only one relatively small point in the overall massive loss of meaningful choices and options. I can understand the developers' side, in that adding the animations for Spears, Crossbows, and Throwing Weapons would each have involved a fair amount of effort just for ONE weapon, even if I don't LIKE their decision. Merging "similar" skills (Axes and Maces/Hammers/Staves) isn't that big a deal, as long as you can still maintain distinctions between characters.

Sadly, the functional differences between "Blunt" and "Blades" in OB were mostly cosmetic, and the perks did exactly the same things, so in effect, there was only one "meaningful" weapon choice: Melee or Ranged, and there was only 1 type of ranged weapon. "Streamlining" is fine when it makes the game easier to learn, but very bad when it limits what your character can do or be. OB went over the line between "streamlining" and "dumbing down". I definitely don't want to see anything else cut, and if Skyrim can't at least bring back SOME character diversity and development, then it will be just another "good, but not Great" game in my opinion.

No we weren't. We were let off on a boat. We didn't get flung through the air and land in Vvardenfell. You mean "Figuratively" thrown into the world.

This poll is far too biased and doesn't acknowledge the possibilities that the perk system will introduce, ie forcing you to specialize your character's skill set.

I suspect your definition of complexity differs from mine and probably fearless hero's as well. Having a few more skills did not make morrowind a complex game on the game mechanic level. None of those games are complex on a game mechanics level IMO. They might be clunky or poorly explained, but they are not complex.




Is that a pet peeve of yours? It is a bit irritating, I hate the misuse of penultimate.(It does not mean super duper ultimate folks)

Ahh baldurs gate 2 now that was a very complex game with so many right and wrong ways of doing things that truley rewarded you for experimentation, think i might reinstall