The Nature of Alduin : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:22 pm

In the “Eating Birth of Dagon” Alduin is called Epoch eater, World-eater and Time-eater. I don’t think Alduin just eats the world in a physical sense I think he consumes it in a temporal sense as well.

In the “Eating Birth of Dagon” Alduin asks LDK/Dagon (who had tried to stop him eating the world): “do you even know what would HAPPEN if that happened, my dying and being unable to eat and the kalpa left to run forever?” I believe this suggests that the kalpa-feast serves a fundamental purpose.

So Alduin may not be acting out of pure malice, in the Yokudan Monomyth there wasn’t “room to breathe or even be” until Satak, the First Serpent, started eating itself to make room.

If there was a temporal limit on the length of a kalpa then Alduin would have to consume the past to allow the future to happen. This would make Alduin/Akatosh/Auriel both destroyer and preserver.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Hmmm

They keep saying that in Skyrim you will be able to stop TIME...

What does this mean??

As far as I know only an Apotheosis will trigger an interruption in the flow of time...

But using this as a feature of combat?...

What does this mean?

The champion-made-Sheogorath did hold up his staff, and with the voice of a god commanded "HOLD!" and his enemies froze in place. It's probably just a dragonshout (read:thu'um) that let's you freeze enemies in place, possibly by altering their perception of time, or possibly something more literal, or possibly just a screaming paralytic, but it doesn't really matter. The player should be familiar with the consequences of such a power by now. They've already weilded such things.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:16 am

It seems that discussions of the lore tend to descend into beauty contests with one side attempting to demonstrate how much more they know than the other...

This really should not be the case. Let me state it clearly, I am NOT, I repeat NOT a Loremaster.

If it helps anybody's ego I am rather ignorant in these matters.

That said, this lore is convoluted, even in game sources could be wrong, out of game conjecturing even more so...

Some folks are saying that 200 years after the avatar of the Dragon god of time defended Tamriel against utter destruction by Mehrunes Dagon, 200 years after the joined blood of Dragons and kings finally sealed the barriers to oblivion to PRESERVE Mundus. The Dragon god is back again to destroy the world...it does not seem to add up.

May I point out that right this moment, the joined blood of Akatosh and Martin is protecting Mundus from an Oblivion invasion

When you combine this with the fact that gods operate in portfolios and that the texts that refer to Alduin as Akatosh specifically declare that the similarity is SUPERFICIAL (ie only on the surface) You begin to see that two separate gods are in play here

vilnii this is like saying "I'm not a doctor, but I like to pretend I know what I'm talking about".

Akatosh is no more. The covenant with Alessia was broken. If you're wondering why Akatosh seemed different than Alduin and Auri-el, the Marakhuti Selectives CHANGED him purposefully to remove the merish aspects(Namely destroy mundus, oppose lorkhan/man).

@MK
It is not the right time to eat the thread. Can't you see the lore masters over there arguing?

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:43 pm

Satakal seems comparable to Alduin in eating the world, but Ruptga seems comparable to Akatosh in the role of helping people bypass that destruction. The Yokudans don't seem to have a distinct 'time god', but spread those attributes out amongst their pantheon.

It is Lorkhan who helps people to jump to the next kalpa.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:38 pm

It is Lorkhan who helps people to jump to the next kalpa.

Sep is Lorkhan in the story. He decides to do something different than just bypass the kaplas (like Ruptga would have them do) by building a new world out of the skins of the old. Varieties of Faith even says that its Sep that is the Yokudan Lorkhan, although it compares Satakal with Alduin, and makes no relation between Ruptga and the time gods. Still, Ruptga seems to fill the role of Auriel and Akatosh.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:46 pm

I dunno, Emrys, Akel, the stomach of the first serpent, sounds much more like Alduin. A constant and every hungry force, causing the serpents to eat anything, including themselves.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:20 am

It seems that discussions of the lore tend to descend into beauty contests with one side attempting to demonstrate how much more they know than the other...

This really should not be the case. Let me state it clearly, I am NOT, I repeat NOT a Loremaster.

If it helps anybody's ego I am rather ignorant in these matters.

That said, this lore is convoluted, even in game sources could be wrong, out of game conjecturing even more so...

Some folks are saying that 200 years after the avatar of the Dragon god of time defended Tamriel against utter destruction by Mehrunes Dagon, 200 years after the joined blood of Dragons and kings finally sealed the barriers to oblivion to PRESERVE Mundus. The Dragon god is back again to destroy the world...it does not seem to add up.

When you combine this with the fact that gods operate in portfolios and that the texts that refer to Alduin as Akatosh specifically declare that the similarity is SUPERFICIAL (ie only on the surface) You begin to see that two separate gods are in play here

You might see that, but we don't. There is much much more evidence in favor of Akatosh being Alduin than your theory. But your response is to say, evidence doesn't mean anything, anything could be possible, therefore my theory is the most probable...... I have no idea how that logic works...

And for the Akatosh PRESERVING, then destroying.... I already showed you an example from the religion you brought up. Vishnu the PRESERVER, is the destroyer of the world.. And his last form is specifically coming back as representing TIME. Time destroys everything...

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:09 am

The champion-made-Sheogorath did hold up his staff, and with the voice of a god commanded "HOLD!" and his enemies froze in place. It's probably just a dragonshout (read:thu'um) that let's you freeze enemies in place, possibly by altering their perception of time, or possibly something more literal, or possibly just a screaming paralytic, but it doesn't really matter. The player should be familiar with the consequences of such a power by now. They've already weilded such things.

I'd say wait until we know what Thu'um is before jumping to any conclusions. Is it invoking the power of Alduin? Are you tapping the power Kyne gave to the Dragons? Are you just breathing magick (lame)? We don't know yet.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:07 am

Maybe the Dragons are tapping the Kyne given to mortals?

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:13 pm

I'd say wait until we know what Thu'um is before jumping to any conclusions. Is it invoking the power of Alduin? Are you tapping the power Kyne gave to the Dragons? Are you just breathing magick (lame)? We don't know yet.

:shrug: Wasn't trying to make any definite statement about why the dragonshout works, just what the effect would be in combat. I'm betting it will have the exact same effect as sheogorath's staff is all.

@Iconoklast:

Two dragons are speaking together as Kyne walks by.

"Hey whathaveyoufaliargus, I'm a gonna tap that."

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:28 pm

Aha!

A more nuanced explanation of what Alduin is by 'Hairdo Galosh Jam' below

It's not fully accurate to say Alduin is one of the Nine Divines. He is, and he isn't. He occupies a similar space in the Nordic pantheon that Akatosh does in the Imperial pantheon but he's a different deity, while at the same time being the same essential being. Akatosh was a being specifically created by the Marahkuti Selectives by dancing on a Tower to remove the Altmer influences from Imperial religion. He's basically Alduin without Auriel. Such an event that these fanatical priests caused is often referred to as a "Dragon Break" in the TES mythos. More than one has happened in this Kalpa alone.

A Kalpa is basically the span of time between when Alduin finishes eating a world and begins again, meaning that everything reboots and starts over. Apparently it's happened more than once before. Possibly dozens, hundreds, thousands or millions of times. Who knows? Supposedly there's a way to break the Dragon once and for all and break the cycle. It involves Love.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:05 pm

That is actually exactly what everyone has been saying to you. I think you've been linked to Varieties of Faith and The Monomyth several times in this thread alone, have you read either yet?

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:51 am

I have a tendency to sum things up in simple, readable terms. But I was just repeating what was stated in those texts already linked and discussed in this thread.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:28 pm

I hope Bethesda Makes Alduin impressive or at least imposing enough to inspire awe.

To be honest the appearance of Umaril, sheogorath and Jyglagg did not do justice to their status as Daedric Princes.

Mehrunes Dagon was excellent as was Martin when he turned to Akatosh.

Now I am not saying every endgame boss has to be sixty feet tall, but they do need to inspire fear and awe equivalent to their reputation

I hope they do something with Alduin to make meeting him at the end worth it

Sheogorath was fine in my book, what do you think they should have improved on him? And as for Mehrunes Dagon,
I think he was kinda... meh... "Generic demon bad guy"-looking.

Though Mankar Camoran... That was a dissapointment.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:12 am

But lets be honest, Mehrunes Dagon has always looked like a demonic version of Shiva. As for ol' Sheo, I would have preferred the Daggerfall look.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:56 pm

He'd look cooler as a catfish-eelman, I think. Mehrunes the Red Whiskers That Went Up!

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:45 am

Nah, how about a giant kitten, like how he's depicted in the Khajiit myths. That way, the battle between the avatar of Akatosh and Mehrunes Dagon would be incredibly adorable! Screw the fishman from Lovecraft.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:26 pm

That works too.

Whiskers are still going up!

And I was thinking of Dagon, the one that Mehrunes Dagon had as his avatar, for a while.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Well, I was close. Too many Dagons nowadays, it's getting hard to keep track of them all.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:34 pm

Merhunes Dagon was visually imposing and believable as a destructive threat to the empire

I am certain that any gang of thieves who met Sheogorath in a narrow alley would have zero fear targeting him

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:42 pm

When the CoC met Sheogorath, the Prince of Madness did not want to appear imposing. If he desired, he could make himself just as terrifying as Mehrunes Dagon. That's the handy thing about being a god, especially a capricious one.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:00 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/mad-gods-masque-and-bellicose-ball

it’s nice to think you’d easily recognize
a raving lunatic with your myopic eyes
his hair is all askew, possessions in bags,
he’s draqed in chains or festooned in rags
peering in too clearly is a dangerous task
you don’t know what is behind the mask

the smiling man on the street moving in your direction
might be wanting your teeth for his molar collection
you trust your spare key to the sweet lady next door
never suspecting a thing ‘til your blood’s on the floor
the fine merchant, those cute kids, that pair of newlyweds,
you’d be filled with pure horror if you looked in their heads

so, some say i choose this form to put you at ease
with middle class formalities, thank you and please,
others say it’s symbolic, though my bank has no walls
and there’s no penalty for early mental withdrawals

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:09 am

Sheogorath as he appeared in Shivering Isles was fine if you ask me. Sheogorath wasn't supposed to be a terrifying monster for you to fight, he wanted you're help, so there would be no reason for him to appear in an imposing form. What made Sheogorath stand out was mostly his personality rather than his appearance, though since he had a beard, that made him pretty unique too seeing as no one else in the game does. Besides, in past games, he was always depicted as looking somewhat similar. In the case of Alduin, though, I'm sure Bethesda will try to make him look imposing, I mean, he IS supposed to be a dragon god threatening to destroy the world, I can't see Bethesda making him look like he'd have a hard time destroying one person, though that WOULD be a pretty surprising twist. My assumption is that Alduin will look like a dragon, but bigger and more imposing than all the other dragons the player will have faced before encountering him. How much bigger? I don't know, we'll see.

» Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:55 pm

Reminds me of the Trinity Vs. Godhead arguement in Christianity. I think one of the points to this is that we are all given a mixture of information from different sources, and we'll obviously end up interpreting or thinking differently depending on the perspective from which we read it. I personally think that Akatosh and Alduin are the same entity but expressed differently between the two cultures. The creation of Mundus weakened the Gods to where they are no longer pure or stationary in their being. They are bound to Nirn and are subject to the ideas and actions of it's mortal inhabitants. They're more like a spiritual/magical force (that forms and is made manifest according to cultural or religious belief ) than a physical personage.

I think that as Linear history continues, with Mer and Men emerging and transcending beyond their initial creation, the Aedra become weaker and weaker, and if the world was not consumed and renewed, then they would eventually cease to exist.