Getting back to dwarves here....

I will be happy to see Dwemer in Skyrim, as it even sounds like they will fit well there - after all, the Elves aren't exactly known for loving snow (High Rock, Valenwood etc), so some Dwarvish ruins should be neat...also be interesting because those who didn't play TES III will get to see them. So should be fun!

Well, the reason mer are not known for loving snow is because they either became one with the men, resulting in a half race (bretons) or were wiped out the region (Solstheim and Skyrim) in ages past. The Red Year changed that for Solstheim, and sorta for Skyrim.

They don't live in Khaz Modan. Dwemer holdings were mostly concentrated in Hammerfell and Morrowind.

Speaka da English for da non-lore buffs please. :confused:

I'll assume you mean Skyrim when you say.. Khaz Modan...and in any case, I wasn't suggesting their would be actual Dwemer's living in skyrim...just their ruins. After all, Skyrim is 200 years after Oblivion, which was after Morrowind and it looks from screenshots like the Dwemer holdings in Morrowind weren't that new either.

You mention Hammerfell - does that mean they're in TES II - Daggerfall?

The Dwemer hadn't really been established yet in Daggerfall, but lore-wise they did live in Hammerfell. Some of their ruins in that province are seen in the game Redguard.

In fact, the province got its name from the dwarves. It was first settled by a group of Dwemer who didn't want to live in Resdayn with the Chimer, so their leader threw his hammer Volendrung into the sky and they followed its path to live where it fell. So it was called "Volenfell", and then when the Dwemer were gone, "Hammerfell".

Warcraft reference

Eh, Umaril doesn't believe in the alessian pantheon, wanted to demoralize the populace by desecrating temples so they would be ripe for genocide/ re-enslavement. If that doesn't sound like the objective of an Ayleid, then I guess I really don't know what and Ayleid king with an Immortal army at his disposal would aspire to do now-a-days.

We know lots about the http://www.imperial-library.info/search/node/ayleids, to say otherwise just demonstrates a lack of research or your ignoring the facts.

I can assure you Megaton knows whatever there is to know about Ayleids.

The point he was trying to make was this: here we had another interesting, vanished (or almost-vanished), clearly once-important race whose possible significance became reduced to pretty-looking dungeons and a few neat quests in a glorified DLC. In comparison with the Dwemer, whose goals, ultimate intentions, and general nature remain mysterious -- and yet figure in directly into the main quest of Morrowind -- the Ayleids' potential for storytelling panache was not achieved in reality. And this is what "lore" is -- the parts of the games that tell the best, most interesting stories. The Ayleids were interesting, but their storytelling potential went largely -- not fully, but largely -- untapped in Oblivion.

The description of "Dwemer lite" is quite apt. I thought it myself more than once when playing Oblivion.

Aw here, I guarantee you if the Ayleids were used in the same way as the Dwemer, there would be a discussion here now about the lack of originality concerning them, you can't win, so I'll stop trying, good luck.

I'll agree that the Ayleids weren't as involved in the main quest and general gameplay of Oblivion as the Dwemer were in Morrowind's. Doesn't mean we don't have some good info on them, though. The vast majority of what we have on the Dwemer are fictions written by later generations or untranslatable texts. On the Ayleids we have some great contemporary accounts, actual descriptions of their cities, and quite a bit of a language. It comes down to the main quest, I think - the Dwemer figured into Morrowind's and hence seem more interesting to us. The Ayleids were only background in Oblivion's, and hence we feel less connected to them.

Maybe we need a Guide to the Ayleids at TIL

I think so, because I find the Alyeids to svck!

CHANGE MY MIND!!!!

steampunk elves vs bird elves(?)!!!

Though I don't know how that's supposed to make you change your mind, as the (imo) clear winner there is the steampunk elves.

Keep in mind the Ayleids built the wheel within the wheel, and realized the importance of 8 before most other races.

That's the problem, I HATE BOTH!

Oh yes, I'd love to see a Guide to Ayleids.

I should be clear: I do find the Ayleids fascinating based on the literature we had before/outside of Oblivion. It's the lack of exploration of those concepts in-game that I (and, I think, Megaton) found...slightly disappointing.

Outside the game, you bet they're awesome. White Gold, the Enslavement of Man, their pacts with Daedric Princes -- so, so, so much rich history to love. Big fan. Even the in-game book "The Wild Elves" painted a picture I'd have loved to see portrayed in-game. Trouble was, we didn't get that. Even White Gold is portrayed as little more than a building where the Elder Council meets (and where a nifty Thieves Guild quest happens).

But I suppose this is but a small subset of the "Why didn't Oblivion cater to the lore?" complaint, which we've all heard and beaten to death.

The Ayleids built the center of the wheel, which was usurped by man.
Ring a bell?

In a globally mythic sense, of course.

In a specific sense, it also resonates with Walk-Brass.

Isn't Anumidum the axis around which burning plane(t)s and rogue time lines orbit or something?