Azura confusion : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu May 12, 2011 1:15 am

So the conclusion is what ? To send the nerevarine when it was convenient ? I bet if she waited i litle later till Urs golem would be functional the glory of the Azuras champion would way bigger.

Considering what happened with Numidium at the end of Daggerfall (or what Tiber Septim was able to accomplish with it in his day), which was "only" using The Underking's soul for power, I don't think Akulakhan being activated with the Heart of Lorkhan would've bode well for anyone.

» Thu May 12, 2011 6:15 am

I would not surprised if she would be in a secret aliance with Mehrunes Dagon. She would still win even with the destruction of Morrowind. The dumner will look upon old goods who they have forsaken.

Of course she was. The events of Morrowind are completely her own machinations (with a little bit of Uriel Septim's thrown in) and what happened? The Heart of Lorkhan, the stone of Red Tower, left Red Tower unpowered, leaving only one more tower left in order for the barriers to collapse against Oblivion's Red Tide. She actively worked to end the 3rd Empire.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept

But look else at what it did, she reformed the soul of the Dunmer people so that it would be slightly more amenable to those taking them in. They got rid of their slaves, began to overcome their xenophobia/became more amenable to Imperial (read: universal) values, among other things. What does this prelude towards? Them becoming a people of refugees, abandoned by the philosophy they adhered to when the mortal center of it died. For what purpose? Who knows yet. That is manipulating events not just in your favor (vengeance against the Tribunal), but also showing kindness and consideration for one of Azura's patron peoples.

As I said before, she is what she is, the Daedric Prince of Transition. Her actions always end one thing to begin another. You can ascribe one reason for that transition (it's petty, it's wrathful, it's kind, it's merciful, it's manipulative), but you'd be doing both Azura and the people undergoing that transition a disservice.

Considering what happened with Numidium at the end of Daggerfall (or what Tiber Septim was able to accomplish with it in his day), which was "only" using The Underking's soul for power, I don't think Akulakhan being activated with the Heart of Lorkhan would've bode well for anyone.

Yeah, were I Dagoth Ur, first act I'd do with a fully powered Akulahkhan is give the world Corprus. Or at least the Dunmer peoples.

» Thu May 12, 2011 12:20 am

If Azura wanted vengeance, she would have sat back and watched Dagoth blight the Dunmer and humiliate the Tribunal in front of their worshipers (because the Tribunal would be unable to stop Dagoth Ur). The best vengeance is to live a better life than the person you despise: watching the Tribunal weaken and fall to the Heart would have amused some of the other Princes.

Azura doesn't need the Dunmer's worship. If she needs people to love her, there's the entire Khajiit race.

The author of the book that the forum member mehrunes dagon quoted isn't stupid. She (the author) seems pretty tuned in to the nature of the various Daedric Princes she's served. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Invocation_of_Azura. She doesn't come across as a brainwashed cultist. Rather than blindly following Princes, she's seeking a Prince to fit her needs, and stops following them if they don't fulfill her criteria. Given that the author does have some moral fiber, I would presume that if she thought Azura didn't care for her worshipers and enjoyed seeing them suffer, the author would move on to another Daedric Prince to worship.

Azura is certainly no Mara, but for a Daedric Prince she's not half-bad. 1. She seems interested in mortals to some extent and doesn't necessarily view all of them as squishy disposable ants. 2. She doesn't seem to actively scheme and plot destruction (Boethiah, Mephala, Dagon, Molag Bal, etc.). 3. Most people who seek her out seem to have a positive experience (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion), though I don't doubt she - like the Tribunal, Aedra, and other Daedra - can be ruthless to those who cross her. The point is that she doesn't actively try to kill or corrupt you.

If she's pissed at the Tribunal, then maybe it's because she's pissed at what they did to her bff Nerevar. Also, it seems like Nerevar and the Tribunal made a contract/pact/pledge/oath to not use the Heart of Lorkhan for selfish purposes. If someone you trusted betrayed you, I bet you'd be pretty pissed, too.

Why try to make a Nerevarine? Like I said earlier, if she wanted vengeance, she could sit back and watch the Tribunal fall before Dagoth Ur and say "I told you so." The success of the Nerevarine ended the blight, ended the temptation to use the Heart (imagine if Mankor had got a hold of it), and reconciled the internal rift in the Dunmer religion (the heretics and the Temple). On the downside, it means the Tribunal can't tank up on their powers again, Red Mountain as a Tower is gone. If Vivec had Chim, I don't see why he didn't stop the Ministry of Truth from cratering Vvardenfell. Ultimately, the whole thing with Baar Dau was Sheogorath's meddling. If the "Pilgrim's Path" is accurate, then there would have been no Baar Dau ker-splat if there hadn't been a Tribunal (or if the Tribunal hadn't tried to take over Daeric Worship, which pissed Sheogorath off).

Azura isn't perfect, she doesn't fart sunshine and daisies and love. Maybe she can be a bit vindictive, but who isn't? Maybe she's manipulative, but so are the Tribunal. I'm just saying she's no worse than most of the other characters in the TES universe, and possibly a bit nicer than some of the other Daedric Princes are to mortals (Hircine thinks you taste lovely roasted and spitted like a hare).

I don't think that the Nerevarine in TESIII was the last chance to stop Ur. The crisis could have gotten much worse (more blight), and it could have extended on for another few hundred years. I mean, it's only in a relatively small radius that the blighted creatures escaped from the ghost fence, and the Tribunal lost the tools a long, long time ago (centuries)? Unlike Oblivion, I never felt any urgency. And if you want to talk about manipulation, recall that it was the Imperial Emperor who sent your character to Vvardenfell in the hope of being a political pawn to get dunmer and ashlander support. Or, maybe he (Uriel) knew your character fit the criteria to a T and knew the Blight would eventually become a threat - so, hey, kill two birds with one stone: take care of the Blight and get on the Dunmer's good side.

Azura wouldn't leave Ur to his machinations because she would lose every single follower she had then. Even if the blight from Red Mountain can't spread across all of Tamriel, Ur was obsessed with making everything "of his flesh", and Akulakhan wouldn't have been good for anyone. It'd eventually be the loss of every single worshipper she had. If Ur had taken Vivec and recovered wraithguard, sunder, and keening, it would've been goodbye Ruby Tuesday for everyone.

Vivec didn't completely stop Baar Dau because he's a dike, it's in his nature. That doesn't mean Azura's any better, and worshipping just about any TES deity seems like a bad idea. Ticking them off is also a bad idea.