I'm sure this question has been asked a thousand times

(It's been a long time since I posted anything in the lore forum because of how unpleasant my last visit was (mostly due to the topic of CHIM), so if you have anything to say about my post, then please do so in a polite manner, please )


I think everything boils down to the good ol' subject of subjective vs. objective view of the universe (that's what it's called if I'm not mistaken).
If you are a writer (the objective viewer), you know everything about the story you are writing, and time within the story you're writing has no effect on you at all in the real world. If you write that a character does a certain thing, then that character will always have done that thing at that time; and if you replace that action, that character will always have done the new thing at that time instead. If you replace a name on page 1, the former name is just gone.
If you are a character in this story (the subjective viewer), everything depends on the writer. You live in whatever form of time the writer has decided exists in your world, and you do whatever the writer writes you are doing; yet you will perceive it as free will, because there is no way for you to experience the changes being forced onto you by someone with an objective view of your universe. If the writer has changed the name on page one, the name will always have been that name. The former name has never existed. If the writer changes what you did 10 minutes ago, that will always have been the case. Your previous action never existed in anyone's mind except for the writer's.

Now, if we apply this to TES; the writer in the previous example isn't a writer, but a god who's sleeping, and the story is his dream. This god happens to be mad, and the dream is quite lucid. The dream has (in a subjective view) been going on for an extremely long time, and the god has started to love his "creation".
I don't think that anyone can achieve CHIM on his/her own; I believe CHIM is what you achieve when the dreaming god fancies your actions and is beginning to identify with you in an extreme way due to his madness; thus, as time goes on, you become more like the dreamer/the dreamer becomes more like you until you have joined him in dreaming through what you perceive as your own actions subjectively, whereas the original dreamer has, piece by piece, been merging with you and through his "objective powers" he's been guiding you (and, perhaps unknowingly, changing himself to become you as well).
So, basically, I believe that CHIM is what you achieve when the dreamer thinks you're a pretty cool guy, and is more or less intrigued by/jealous of you.
Breaking out of a subjective world view is impossible on your own (you can liken this to being the character in a story and somehow becoming the writer; impossible). The key ingredient is that the writer is insane and starts identifying so much with your character that eventually, he will be you and you will be him (sorta like the movie "23" with Jim Carrey, if I remember correctly?).
The "retaining the 'I'" part that is oh-so-important is simply that you as a character in the story always has to care about the story and loving it (and yourself, considering you are part of it) as much as the dreamer who created it; thus always wanting to be a part of it and your "subjective self" (keyword: love).

When you drag this out of the TES universe and into this universe, I believe Bethesda is the dreamer and TES is the dream. I guess MK stands for the insane part of the dreamer, eh? :laugh:
(But seriously, though, MK roleplaying as Vivec in "Trial of Vivec" is practically how Vivec has CHIM. When roleplaying, you are your character and vice-versa; and considering MK is part of writing the MW story he is the dreamer, Vivec is MK and they are the writer at that point).


My two cents, they were. And, as I said in the beginning; if you want to discuss a part of it then DISCUSS it, don't bicker and argue. I got enough of that last time.


(Also, at time of posting it is the 11th of April 2011, making it 6 years since I joined the forums. Go me!)

Am I the only one who doesn't like Bethesda = Godhead? It cheapens it for me, and doesn't really help my understanding.

Eh, I used to think like this too, but to be honest, the GH, and CHIM (well maybe not so much with CHIM), can all be pretty much ignored. While they're big, overarching theories, if you don't like the thought of them, just ignore them. That's what I usually do.

No, Bethesda isn't a transcendent intelligence, but M'aiq made an anology, which isn't exactly an equation, is it?

Isn't the Godhead comparable in some ways to God in RL religions? I mean he exists before everything, he 'dreams' the universe into existance and he exists everywhere at the same time. Even Anu and Pandomay exist only as his thoughts or dreams. So he apears to have the highest level of divinity in TES. Also viewing It as gamesas is I think very simplistic. If looking from that point of view the Godhead could be viewed as the sum of thoughts and actions that created TES. Or the concept of TES. Or the CS with Anu and Pandomay being the binary system. A interesting thing to know is what happens when one reaches CHIM? Does he become the Godhead? Does one mantle the Godhead that way? Or does one escape the Godheads dream? Or he becomes a divine being conected with the godhead and as such higher than the aedra and daedra and on the same plane with Anu? And how does one maintain his state of CHIM without Zerosuming? And by that I mean how can one other than the Godhead maintain his identity while being in a state if CHIM?

You don't escape the dream, you're one with it.

However saying the godhead is mad is pure hogwash