Please read the entire OP before you post!!!

Currently I am doing research for the Camoran family/Camoran Dynasty, and I came across an oddity I would like to address--see if anyone knows what this is about. I'd rather not play a guessing game, so if you don't know the actual answer, I would prefer it if you don't reply to this thread. I don't want it getting spammy. I want more definite answers, because I can come up with plenty of guesses all on my own, thank you.

So, my question is this: If the Camoran Dynasty are from Valenwood, and the Camorans are Bosmer, why are Mankar Camoran and his children Altmer in TES IV?

Of course, we can assume several possibilities: one could be that somewhere in the line they descended from, there are Altmer ancestors as well as Bosmer. Another possibility is that the creators wanted to give them better magical abilities, so they made them Altmer in the game though they are really supposed to be Bosmer. But I am a little confused, and I'd like to know the real story behind this, if anyone has the answer. :teehee:

You can read the story of Mankar's birth in the Refugees if you want. Though according to that book his mother was a bosmer. (which just compounds problems)

I believe the Camoran dynasty has been descendent at least partially of Altmer stock since the Dominion. The differences between Bosmer and Altmer are also not as pronounced as the game would have you believe. Ultimately, though, its a matter of gameplay: could you take a Bosmer seriously as the archvillain?

That's what confused me the most--I assumed maybe his mother was Altmer and his father Bosmer, but that book says otherwise, so I'm a little dizzy... :bonk:



Lol, that could be it. However, I'm trying to compose a bit of a family tree because the Camorans are connected to my writing, and I'm not sure how to go about it because there is so little information in the Lore (which might be good in terms of giving me more freedom, but at the same time it leaves me in the dark a little--it drives me crazy when I'm missing information! :ahhh: )

The major racial differences are just game play, except for the ones that have a major difference. There are probably short Nords, tall Bosmer (in Mankar's situation), ect.

Most Altmer probably are tall though.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Valenwood

Yep. But the Camoran ruler of the Thalmor was backed and instituted by Summurset.

You are also seeing him after he's bound himself to Mehrunes Dagon and had the opportunity to shape a plane of Oblivion. It's rather conceivable that he's reshaped himself according to his will.

I'm leaning towards Lady Nerevar's idea that the Altmer and Bosmer aren't really as different (physically) as they are shown in-game. I could imagine that some of the nobility of Valenwood would have very pure bloodlines making them look just like the Altmer of Summerset.

Don't forget that back at the beginning of the First Era, they may have been more similar-looking, and over millennia split into the Bosmer and Altmer of today. Heck, they may not have even been separate races at that point.

The PGE 3rd also claims that Cameron the usurper was a "pretender to the Cameron throne". So mankar might not have any connection to the original Cameron dynasty at all.

This is another good theory...



This is true, and most likely the case. But the creators made him Altmer in the game, so that's why I was wondering--was it just a matter of looks/abilities, and he's still technically supposed to be Bosmer? That seems like the most viable conclusion...



Well, that's true, but given that his real name includes the surname, I would surmise that he was still a blood-relative. Possibly a younger brother or a cousin, jealous of the real king's position and wanting to usurp the throne because he felt like he would be better suited or whatever.... I would still say he is likely a real Camoran--he just wasn't the one who got to sit on the throne...

Bosmer don't seem to have surnames, except royalty. He could be another member of the family, but since he's described as Camoran Kaltos' advisor rather than a relative, I think it's more likely that he either claimed the title for himself or was adopted like the Romans often did. I don't know why Kaltos has a surname-forename structure when Haymon and Mankar have a forename-surname structure, though.

Another possibility: I got the impression that perhaps, since the family is so old and perhaps more genetically 'pure,' they are close to the original aldmer stock, like the chimer, ayleids, and presumably altmer.

The real reason is almost certainly that the designers felt a Bosmer as the game's main villain was not very imposing. I think they're pretty creepy in their own way, though.

Edit: And, correct me if I'm wrong, because it's always hard to tell in TES, but the Refugees was supposed to be historical fiction, wasn't it? If it's a novel or whatever it may be complete BS, have a kernel of truth, or be based on the author's thorough research. It's hard to say.

Personally I believe that ever since TES III the Bosmer became somewhat of a joke, which continued in TES IV. I'm hoping Skyrim doesnt do them wrong, and we get to see a somewhat grimmer side to them.

Yes, i thought it was strange, too, that Camoran Kaltos has the structure of his surname different from the other named family members... And you are right about many of your other points, too. So, I guess, since it's not really specified in lore, I can just make it fit however I choose for my story. Probably best that way, anyway.



Grimmer side of Bosmer would be nice to see in Skyrim. But if you want to see Bosmeri who are not a big joke, and if you like fan fiction... *begin advertisemant* ...you should read my fan fic, linked in my signature. It has very grim and dark nature, of course, because it takes place in a very dark world. If you didn't like SI and Bosmer in TES IV, I can assure you that I paint a much better, darker and more in depth picture of them in my SI fan fiction. I highly recommend that you check it out. *end advertisemant*

;)

The Bosmer are a joke, but it's a type of very black humour that will eat your corpse. I think it would be a mistake to make them out and out grim. But yes, most of the writers/designers at gamesas don't seem to have a strong grip on what their nature should be.

Camoran, like "Caesar" is both a title and a name. Some may use it as one, the other, or both.

Or Septim, their antagonists.

Ah yes, i guess I never thought of it that way! Julius Caesar/Caesar Augustus...Mankar Camoran/Camoran Kaltos... Indeed, I think we have that mystery solved...

Not to be confused with Cameron, which is just a name.

Aww, I so thought James Cameron was like, royalty or something... :sadvaultboy:

Grrr. Stupid vowels. I meant Camaron, the King of Sentinel.

lmao, oh, okay....

Well, since lore doesn't specify, I think I'll have the Camoran Usurper be a real Camoran, but he'll be the cousin of Camoran Kaltos or something. And they will definitely be of a more pure bloodline to the altmeri than most other bosmer. But that's just for my story, so unless Beth were to accept my story into lore, it is just my own interpretation and holds no weight over the lore itself...