Any info on whether or not dwarfs exist in the Elder Scrolls universe? I don't mean the typical "race" of stocky, ale drinking miners. Nor do I mean the Dwemer. I mean actual dwarfs. You know, people that suffer (or not suffer to be PC) from genetic dwarfism. People like http://lasnark.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/mini_me.gif or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Dinklage who plays Tyrion Lannister in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones television series.

I can't think of any cases of dwarfism.

That's... a very good question. Not that I know of, but that might just be game mechanics. Who knows?

It might be explained away by babies born with this affliction die young or are rarely seen in the world because of how much more dangerous it is for them. Or they are simply ommitted in the same way children are.

But whether or not they exist, could they? How high is infant mortality rate? Does society even go out of its way to make an effort to keep such people alive?

Would we expect to see society or family members going out of their way to keep someone alive that was paralyzed or a dwarf? We expect that TES people care for their elders, but would they do the same for dwarves or paraplegics?

But from the Game of Thrones television series (I haven't read the novels) , I can see how it is possible that a dwarf can absolutely make his/her own way in the world and not be considered unable to adventure or fight. So why not? There is even magic in TES, which is absent in Game of Thrones, that would make it all the more easier for a dwarf to survive in TES.

I don't even recall hearing about anyone in TES being born with a birth defect of any kind. I wouldn't be surprised if it it just doesn't happen.

Things like paralysis or being in a coma are usually the result of a misuse of magicka or something similar.

If course there are dwarves.

Most of the games are concerned with telling stories on the national or metaphysical level. So while you can have characters who are slow, small, huge, etc, they're not going to be a central point to the series. If it concerned itself more with social issues, then yes, we would start to see other kinds of people.

Now, the novels, yeah go nuts. They're an opportunity to show a more complete world, so if they exist, then they should be put in there. But now I'm rambling.

If we're going to go about this biologically... We know that Tamriel doesn't conform to Earth biology. Dwarfism is caused by chromosomal defects (iirc), and since Tamriel likely doesn't have chromosomes (at least in the same sense that we do), its likely that genetic defects like dwarfism don't exist, either. It could of course spring up due to other factors in Nirnian 'genetics.'

Thanks folks. I knew it was a long shot. The TES setting is obviously open to the idea of persons with dwarfism. I didn't mean to imply that the source of TES dwarfism would be genetics. I was thinking it would be highly possible that a community somewhere be cursed by a pissed off Daedric Prince, necromancer, wizard, etc.

Diseases themselves are magical right? If someone in TES comes down with the flu, is it because of germs? Do germs exist or is all sickness a result of magic? Or maybe midichlorians ... lol.

Again, just to get these question out there:

1) Do germs/bacteria exist?

2) Any clues on infant mortality rate in the Imperial City circa the Oblivion Crisis? (I'm specifically asking w/ a place, because this figure no doubt varies from place to place)

3) What is a typical lifespan, and do people take care of the elderly when they are old and weak? For how long? Will a good son or daughter tend to his/her bed-ridden parent for years before the parent dies? I ask because I wonder how common it is for communities to support the disabled. Can a disabled individual live very long?

1) No idea. I'd venture no, but not all diseases have to be related to magic.
2) No idea, but it seems that Tamrielic society is pretty modern. I would say its fairly low, especially in the Imperial City.
3) Typical lifespan varies by race - we have a thread on it once a month, I suggest doing a search. Most Tamrielic societies have a reverence for their ancestors and elders, so yes, they probably take care of them. I believe Symachus in the Real Barenziah is shown caring for his aging mother. The Tribunal Temple (and the Imperial Cult, as well?) also cares for the sick, which probably includes the old and disabled.

I wonder why racial lifespans are such a popular subject. It seems like a very random question for so many people to ask so often.

I only brought it up as an example of people taking care of the old/decrepit. And I only brought that up to ponder whether someone with dwarfism (considered a disability) would fare in a hostile world without the support of others.

It's actually the question that brought me to these forums. I couldn't find an answer with a Google search or on UESP, so I came to the official forums to use the search feature here. I found my answers, needless to say.

I think it's such a common question because it's never openly defined, and you see characters like Divath Fyr who are 4000 years old, which is obviously not the norm, but it makes you wonder just how impressive that 4000 is compared to the average lifespan of a Dunmer, especially when Barenziah is old and wrinkled at around 400. Plus, with Skyrim coming at around 200 years after Oblivion, the question becomes even more relevant, as we ask who will still be alive at that point.

So yeah, I hadn't really thought of how diseases worked, especially ones carried through genes. Maybe there really are no dwarfs as they appear in the real world on Nirn simply because the genetics are different or even nonexistent.

Makes you wonder a bit about whether the nature vs. nurture argument may be different, eh? If your parentage is as much a mental and spiritual thing as it is physical? Likely, it'd come to the same end result but by wildly different means, like sunlight. However you slice it, both worlds get lit and warmed by a big ball of light in the sky, but damn are they different.

Yah... Every single wood elf is secretly a dwarf lol.

Whether or not Nirn follows the same rules of genetics in real life, we still see clear signs of the impact genetics have on real people in it's population as well, people are still born with different characteristics and we can probably assume their parents have an influence on this, so it's clear that there's something in the world that determines what characteristics people are born with. Whether it actually follows the same mechanics or not. The thing is that a lot of things in the setting are given fantastical explanations, but the result of them we actually see in the story is the same as what the science we understand in real life produces. Whether things fall down because of a natural force called gravity or because invisible spirits in the earth pull them to the ground, they still fall down in the end, likewise, whether physical variations of the people are the results of genetics or something else, they still exist. And with these things, I tend to follow the assumption that if it exists in real life and we're not given any reason to assume it doesn't exist in the Elder Scrolls, there's a good chance it does, even if we're not told about it. So it hardly seems unlikely that dwarfism does exist in the Elder Scrolls. While we haven't seen any characters like that, this may just be a result of gameplay mechanics, because the mechanics in past games generally did not include functionality for NPCs of the same race with different physiques. In any case, just because we don't see something in the game doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for some things, you can sort of take it for granted that they exist even if we don't see them. Of course, it's certainly not impossible that a dwarf wouldn't fare so well in the setting, though I'd imagine it depends a lot upon the conditions they're born in, and the existence of magic would give them oportunities to accomplish something that people in the real Middle Ages would not have. After all, how well you can cast spells isn't determined by your height (At least not as far as we know. It's presumably entirely a coincidence that the race with the greatest natural talent for magic happens to be the tallest.) and I don't think most people are too concerned about how tall you are when you can throw fireballs from your hand.

For that matter, one could also argue about whether chromosomes actually don't exist in Nirn, or if it's simply that the inhabitents of the world aren't aware of their existence, after all, the lore is told from the perspective of people in the setting, so if people don't know about something than it won't be mentioned, that doesn't mean it's not there. After all, just because some things contrary to current scientific understanding exist in the setting doesn't mean nothing can fit real life science, still, if we're going to get into that argument, there would really be no end to the things we can apply it too, so I'll just say what I said earlier. We are not given any indication that Nirn follows the mechanics of real life genetics, but it still seems like the effects are similar, so as far as how it effects characters in the setting, we may be able to assume that the real life rules we'd apply are still in effect unless we're told they're not, like how crossbreeds between different races are said to work.



I don't know either, actually, my only assumption is that people want to know it for role-playing purposes so they can ensure that their character's age is lore correct. But usually, when actually role-playing in the game, I don't really seek to define a numerical age for my character, so it's not a big issue for me.

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

:laugh: He's supernatural.

And I'm surprised you haven't reminded us of Vivec's dwarf.

As the Aldmer would say, being mortal is a birth defect. The gods, our ancestors, had a much greater stature. Observe the Anumidium, Mehrunes Dagon, Akatosh and the Tribunals giant form. It would appear that everybody in Tamriel is a Dwarf.

But let's not obsess over anatomy. :whistling:

There was a very short (even for a wood elf) bosmer in the Shivering Isles in a ruin somewhere. I can't remember the name of the place. When you killed him some statues would use a shock spell and bring him back to life.