Why does Alduin claim he HAS to eat the world?

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 4:38 pm

What's to stop Alduin from just continuously eating the world consecutively, if his true goal is to prevent the waking?
Why does he allow for mortals to survive for any length of time?


(Good question.)

I don't know. (Boring answer.)

But if I had to hazard a guess, probably a healthy dose of Lorkhan.

Also, don't forget that "there is one they fear..."
User avatar
Tikarma Vodicka-McPherson
 
Posts: 3426
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:15 am

Post » Wed May 11, 2011 1:25 am

Ehm.
I just made the following up as a reply to a thread in the Skyrim section but I thought it was actually not that bad and maybe it would have a place here.
On the nature of dragons and the eating of the world, is what I printed below a good description?

Alduin is a god.
His dominion is beyond mortal comprehension. His presence in the Mundus is visible to all, he appears as a planet in the sky.
That planet is the god, the body of him, as far as our senses can make sense of the incomprehensible.

The eating of the world is a divine process. It is the ending of one turn of the wheel, the kalpa, and the start of the next.
Likewise this unknowable concept is translated down to our comprehension as a literal, physical reality.
Hence dragons that bring destruction.
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:22 pm

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 1:04 pm

I think the more interesting question is what's going to happen this time when(if) the Dovakhiin stops Alduin from eating the world?
User avatar
Emma-Jane Merrin
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:52 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 11:54 am

He eats the world to be free. The Mundus is like a cage to him and he wants to eat it to be free of it. Unfortunately, Lorkhan just tricks him and the other Aedra into creating it all over again. It's a vicious cycle.

It's kinda like the cycle of Jyggalag and Sheogorath, in the sense that it's a brutal cycle waiting for someone to change it
User avatar
Riky Carrasco
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:17 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Why does Alduin have to eat the world each time? What's so bad about having the current Kalpa keep on running? And what's going to happen if we defeat him in Skyrim?

This is from the Yokudan Monomyth:
“Satak was First Serpent, the Snake who came Before, and all the worlds to come rested in the glimmer of its scales. But it was so big there was nothing but, and thus it was coiled around and around itself, and the worlds to come slid across each other but none had room to breathe or even be. And so the worlds called to something to save them, to let them out, but of course there was nothing outside the First Serpent, so aid had to come from inside it; this was Akel, the Hungry Stomach. Akel made itself known, and Satak could only think about what it was, and it was the best hunger, so it ate and ate. Soon there was enough room to live in the worlds and things began.”

Alduin/Aka(tosh)/Auri-EL is the time god. Perhaps the emphasis of the world eating is more about him eating the world in a temporal sense, he’s eating the time the world existed in so therefore the world itself is consumed. Alduin’s concern seems to be that the Kalpa could ‘run forever’. Maybe there is a finite amount of time that can occur. If Alduin didn’t eat the time of the previous Kalpa then maybe there wouldn’t be temporal ‘room to breathe or even be.’ Perhaps there would be a perpetual Dawn Era or something approaching absolute stasis.

He eats the world to be free. The Mundus is like a cage to him and he wants to eat it to be free of it. Unfortunately, Lorkhan just tricks him and the other Aedra into creating it all over again. It's a vicious cycle.

I’m not sure about this. Could it be that Alduin’s Kalpa turning is a part of the cage itself (his function within it) rather than his means to escape from it. In the Eating Birth of Dagon Alduin remembers the previous Kalpa feasts, how could he and the other aedra be tricked/persuaded/cajoled into taking in part in Lorkhan’s scheme repeatedly?

what's going to happen if we defeat him in Skyrim?

Well it seems from Alduin’s wall and Esbern’s narration that Alduin’s previous defeat simply delayed the world eating. Perhaps Time/Aka can’t be fully defeated, just postponed. It’s not clear how long for but if the Song of Return (500 companions of Ysgramor) is an account of history up to the point of Alduin’s previous visit then the fact that the song doesn’t seem to mention any event after the end of the Reman Empire implies that Alduin was defeated about 1200-1500 years before 5E200. This of course assumes (amongst other things) that the Dovahkiin will defeat Alduin in the same way as before.

Name the Heralds.

I would guess that these are the Jills/Drakes/Dragons that we expect to meet in Skyrim.
User avatar
Laura Richards
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:42 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 10:53 pm


I would guess that these are the Jills/Drakes/Dragons that we expect to meet in Skyrim.


I'm pretty sure he meant the heralds of Galactus. He would know who the Jills are, he created them, MK is a major architect of the elder scrolls universe, and in many ways is an aspect of Lorkhan.

So MK, i've lurked these lore boards for over ten years now, since before morrowind was available. I finally registered, just to answer your trivia question:

Galactus' Heralds:
The Fallen One, The Silver Surfer, Terrax, Nova, The Air-Walker(Gabriel), Firelord(Pyreus), and Morg. Later on there was also RedShift and Stardust.
That's not counting the several different universes where people like johnny storm, Thor, and even superman become heralds. *Edited to add, there is also marvel zombies where the surviving zombie superheroes including the hulk, cap america and ?part? of spiderman -eat- galactus, but they're not heralds, they -become- galactus.

The REAL question, if who would win in a three way fight between Alduin, Unicron, and Galactus?
User avatar
Bitter End
 
Posts: 3418
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:40 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 10:40 pm

I think the more interesting question is what's going to happen this time when(if) the Dovakhiin stops Alduin from eating the world?

The world doesn't get eaten, presumably.

I'm guessing he will be stopped, because there are still people alive as of http://elderscrolls.blogspot.com/2005/10/loveletter-from-fifth-era.html
User avatar
rolanda h
 
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:09 pm

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 12:21 pm

So would it be a bad thing to stop the world-eating?
User avatar
Thema
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:36 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 11:32 am

I’m not sure about this. Could it be that Alduin’s Kalpa turning is a part of the cage itself (his function within it) rather than his means to escape from it. In the Eating Birth of Dagon Alduin remembers the previous Kalpa feasts, how could he and the other aedra be tricked/persuaded/cajoled into taking in part in Lorkhan’s scheme repeatedly?


Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems?

Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to.


Alduin's hunger is the urge within mortals to realize CHIM. This is the special purpose for which NIRN was given to the spirits. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age.

When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta, etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane.

User avatar
Rachyroo
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:23 pm

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 7:09 pm

So would it be a bad thing to stop the world-eating?


Bad for the elves, good for man. The Wheel of Convention, aka the imposition of linear time and thus the cycle of the kalpas, after all, was established so that the spirits could return to Aetherius. Man, on the other hand, has no such need for Convention. If Hoon Ding is right, they need time to realize CHIM, and lose any progress should Alduin decide to recycle the universe.
User avatar
Brentleah Jeffs
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:21 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 2:18 pm

Alduin has a real hunger to eat the world and, as previously stated, fears what his failure would entail. Given his relationship with Akatosh and Auriel, we can assume it endangers the ability for the Aedra and other et-ada to return to their previous, fully divine state... Alduin wants to eat the world and prevent mortals from achieving transcendence. By doing so, the reaction between IS and IS NOT will no longer be the universe of the Elder Scrolls, but the waking of the Godhead. Akatosh does not want this as his end game is Stasis and the end of the universe is anything but IS. No universe means no more divinity. So in a nutshell, Alduin must continue eating the world, because if a kalpa runs for too long he runs the risk of Lorkhan succeeding in waking the Godhead through the transcendence of mortals into the New Man.


Bad for the elves, good for man. The Wheel of Convention, aka the imposition of linear time and thus the cycle of the kalpas, after all, was established so that the spirits could return to Aetherius. Man, on the other hand, has no such need for Convention.


We have gotten to see extreme Padomaic destruction in the last game (which is interesting, because we perceived things from a Cyrodiilic perspective there, which is historically more influenced by Altmer theology) with a hint at something a bit more "star daedric" with Meridia and Jyggalag. Now, as far as I can tell, we will fight the Anuist side of extreme destruction, forcible "conservation and purification" of energy brought on by Alduin into a more static state. We, as Dragonborn, get to, as a 'Shezarrine' (again, my interpretation) keep things going in this Kalpa, or at least prevent total "conservation and purification" to prepare the way for mortal transcendence. One more step in the chain of events since the Heart of Lorkhan was released, etc.

Now if only we had some new posts or literature to support this....
User avatar
Tamara Dost
 
Posts: 3445
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:20 pm

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 9:13 pm

Alduin's world eating as a good thing seems to be yet another expression of the Sithic point of view. Those that attempt to continue their existence past their "natural" lifespan deny the future's right to exist. Old men must die so that young men can truly live; the alternative is a gerontocracy in which the ambitions of the young are forever quashed beneath the caution and power-jealousy of the aged. Old institutions must give way so that new institutions might arise; the alternative is a society in which many suffer so that old misconceptions can be maintained well past their usefulness. Old, dying nations must willingly give way to young, virile nations; the alternative is a world in which a declining number continue to live at the expense of impoverished masses. All of this is a reflection of the basic urges of the spirit doman, which are meant to come and go... but the Aedra deny the Future its right to exist, devouring weaker urges to continue their own existence.

In the end, Something must end those who continue their own lives at the expense of others. For individuals, the Dark Brotherhood fells the proud and the meek alike. The Daedra undermine and destroy institutions and civilizations. But for an entire world hopelessly corrupted, you need a Really [censored] Big Dragon.

Ironically, I think some people here have it backwards. It is the Elves that covet the eternal life their "ancestors" sought. It is among Men that you see an acceptance, even a worship, of death and destruction as a necessary part of life.
User avatar
Liii BLATES
 
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:41 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 7:36 pm

It's kinda like the cycle of Jyggalag and Sheogorath, in the sense that it's a brutal cycle waiting for someone to change it

It's exactly like that cycle as in nothing in it will ever change, regardless of the PC trying.
User avatar
Dawn Farrell
 
Posts: 3522
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:02 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 11:04 pm

SNIP


Epic post. Given that the aedric spirits know how to continue themselves beyond each kalpa, it makes sense that they can survive and continue their path to immortality and full divinity, free from the trap of Mundus, while mankind's progress is erased with each Eating. The longer the Eating can be delayed, the greater chance man has on achieving the goals set for them by Shor.
User avatar
Eibe Novy
 
Posts: 3510
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:32 am

Post » Tue May 10, 2011 11:51 pm

Alduin's world eating as a good thing seems to be yet another expression of the Sithic point of view. Those that attempt to continue their existence past their "natural" lifespan deny the future's right to exist. Old men must die so that young men can truly live; the alternative is a gerontocracy in which the ambitions of the young are forever quashed beneath the caution and power-jealousy of the aged. Old institutions must give way so that new institutions might arise; the alternative is a society in which many suffer so that old misconceptions can be maintained well past their usefulness. Old, dying nations must willingly give way to young, virile nations; the alternative is a world in which a declining number continue to live at the expense of impoverished masses. All of this is a reflection of the basic urges of the spirit doman, which are meant to come and go... but the Aedra deny the Future its right to exist, devouring weaker urges to continue their own existence.

In the end, Something must end those who continue their own lives at the expense of others. For individuals, the Dark Brotherhood fells the proud and the meek alike. The Daedra undermine and destroy institutions and civilizations. But for an entire world hopelessly corrupted, you need a Really [censored] Big Dragon.

Ironically, I think some people here have it backwards. It is the Elves that covet the eternal life their "ancestors" sought. It is among Men that you see an acceptance, even a worship, of death and destruction as a necessary part of life.


Except if Ald wins, that future will be exactly the same, with one difference.

And the Nords do not seem to like death at all (despite their violent culture), considering Orkey is an enemy god. And most of them do not see Alduin's eating as a good thing, either. Also, from the Monomyth:

"One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane.

Humans, with the exception of the Redguards, see this act as a divine mercy, an enlightenment whereby lesser creatures can reach immortality. Aldmer, with the exception of the Dark Elves, see this act as a cruel deception, a trick that sundered their connection to the spirit plane.
"

I may have interpreted your post wrong.
User avatar
Stu Clarke
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:45 pm

Post » Wed May 11, 2011 2:33 am

What's to stop Alduin from just continuously eating the world consecutively, if his true goal is to prevent the waking?
Why does he allow for mortals to survive for any length of time?

Because he is also Akatosh, the protector of man.
User avatar
Tanya Parra
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:15 am

Previous

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion