[RELZ] Wrye Bash -- Thread 53 : IV - Oblivion

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:39 am

My suggestion wasn't to make a safe list, but to have different levels of warnings. One warning for known files and a more serious warning for unknown files.

If there isn't a distinction between the two, people will probably just install any such files. This will make any warning only serve the purpose of removing liability from Wrye Bash, but will not help people determine how unsafe the file is.

A example could be a mod that have eg. pluggy packaged with it, a list would be able to recognize this file based on name, size and hash. If it is a valid pluggy.dll you should still get a warning, but if it a unrecognized file the warning should be more serious.

Sounds like a Good plan.. :goodjob:

Just tried 291(SVN-673) with 64bit Python,( http://www.python.org/ftp/python/2.7/python-2.7.amd64.msi, wxPython/2.8.11.0/http://sourceforge.net/projects/wxpython/files/wxPython/2.8.11.0/wxPython2.8-win64-unicode-2.8.11.0-py27.exe/download.) and it's liking it... :drool:
Hadn't tried on 290, might have been good there too.

(I'll look for links)

*added links and correction.

***~~Well still apear to need 64-bit Com Types before I can build a patch~~ :blush:

**** http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/files/pywin32/Build%20214/pywin32-214.win-amd64-py2.7.exe/download :celebration:

****Pages
http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.7/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wxpython/files/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/files/

» Thu May 19, 2011 5:49 am

Let's be clear here. It's really NONE of bash's business what I choose to install. I personally would like BAIN to be able to install things in other places besides just the data directory. For such an advanced tool and as an advanced user, why is Bash stepping on my toes? I actually resent it. As much as I can understand the need for Bash to do it's duty and try to protect the user, don't limit what I can do just because some other people are ignorant and can't be bothered to invest their own time to protect themselves. That is their fault, not Bash's or mine. We all suffer because we are catering to people who don't even care.

This attitude is why Bash gets such a nasty rap among the non-advanced circles. There's no reason why it should be treated as an elite tool for elite users. It's supposed to be a tool for everyone to be able to manage their installs. Bash is stepping on your toes? So that means all of us need to conform to how you want it to work? What if some of us have zero trust in the people distributing mods who might decide to be sneaky and stuff a dll file into their otherwise normal looking mod? The danger isn't some phantom, it's real, OBSE would attempt to load the DLL and if crafted properly, would load itself into memory whether OBSE wanted it to stay there or not. BAM. Infected. So I don't think it hurts anyone to contain a warning when such a file is encountered, and since these things only go in one place for Oblivion I see no harm in restricting where DLL files are allowed to go, and see no reason at all for why Bash should be allowed to install EXE files.

If you want a replacement for Windows Explorer, write one. I stand by my position that Bash is NOT supposed to be that replacement.

» Thu May 19, 2011 12:58 pm

I never said it should be an elite tool. What it should not be is a babysitter.
Who has to conform to anything? What have I suggested that you conform to?
When did I contend the implementation of safeguards? The only thing I contended is the safe list idea because it's unprofessional and very bad practice.
When did I advocate for Bash to be anything like explorer? I'm really not sure where this came from at all.

The reason I wrote that post was in response to the automatic assumption that only dll's files should be allowed and only in the OBSE folder. This is shortsighted and actually requires more code than to just allow everything. For what end?
Why is it so unfathomable that it might be useful to install other file types or in other places besides the data folder using BAIN? I'm not talking about being able to reinstall my operating system using BAIN.
Technical limitations are a whole other thing. It will probably never be possible to install outside the data folder because that's the way it's designed and changing it would be a mess.

Frankly, if all of this discussion and planning is just for the sake of a dozen dll's, then I'm inclined to say that it's not even worth the trouble. You have to install the OBSE executable manually anyhow. You want to build a rocket so that you can get to your neighbors faster. It doesn't make alot of sense. It's not like it's very difficult to install an OBSE plugin. You can't get much simpler. It's not like a user is typically switching plugins in and out of their game. It's not like anything needs to be annealed or managed for you.

Considering all of the other things I must install manually anyhow, this hubbub just for the sake OBSE plugins is kind of silly.

Don't assume that everyone is too stupid to manage their own PC and leave the doors open for new innovations.
Let the lazy users handle their own affairs, it's none of our business. You are just delaying the inevitable anyway and promoting their ignorance.

Protect me with warnings, fine, thank you. Don't prevent me from finding ways of using the tool that you never thought of.

» Thu May 19, 2011 7:12 am

Heh, well, you may recall I was opposed to the idea of letting it install them at all, and only relented when it was looking likely that there would be sufficient safeguards in place. If people wish to ignore the warnings, that's fine, let them, but why should Bash be allowed to start putting things in places it has no business putting them? Oblivion itself won't use jack squat for data outside of the Data folder, and Bash is an Oblivion tool, so it really makes little if any sense to me why there's any interest at all in letting it put things outside of Data.

Yes, all this buzz about plugins and OBSE and all that is for maybe 20 plugin files at the very most, which isn't likely to suddenly explode anytime soon.

» Thu May 19, 2011 2:10 am

WOW new thread time already... how do you all think I'm going to keep up with responses with 35 posts today (or yesterday I suppose since it is now shortly after midnight here)!...
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1136734-relz-wrye-bash-thread-54/
(I have all the posts that I haven't responded to copied to my computer so unless I finish responding to this thread and haven't responded to your post I probably haven't missed it).
Pacific Morrowind