Damn your miniscule pockets of wisdom!

I've heard of both the Nerevarine and Dagoth Ur being referred to as "letters written in uncertainty", and sermon 11 being focused on that.

Er, no. That emphasis on 'I' in CHIM is in many ways the antithesis of Buddhist nirvana, which is both non-theist and involves no-self. Through that lens, the 'I' clung to in CHIM is an illusion, and as such the person who has achieved CHIM is, by virtue of their immense certainty and attachment to the self, farther from nirvana than anyone could possibly be.

But it's all quite different. TES cosmology is very, very dualistic. Comparisons to Buddhism and other native Indian philosophies are always going to fall down there.

Hmm, it sounds like I said that, but I didn't. I said, only that the techniques are similar, without going into the hardcoe illusion. Yes I agree, though didn't convey it properly, CHIM is not Nirvana.

Though, I'm perplexed what you mean by illusion here. Nirvana is no-self, and so is zero-sum, I think, CHIM is not no-self. CHIM IS I AM. CH+I'M. Why would the "I" be an illusion? I is the only truth.

True CHIM is becoming a conscious part of the oversoul. Which is always something to strive for.


The Red King Once Jungled refers to Tiber Septim/Talos. The "Once Jungled" part comes from the retcon (From The Many-Headed Talos) that changes Cyrodiil from a land of "endless junge" into the forested land of TES IV.


I don't think it does, because Mike was upset about the whole jungle thing after Ob came out.

From the Buddhist perspective, self is an illusion. The very word 'I' refers to a self on the part of the speaker; the 'I' is illusionary and springs from ignorance of the true nature of reality. Presumably, then, CHIM is to become so obsessed with the illusion that even in the face of true reality one can still cling to it, and as such it would be a truly vile state of being and those people who have achieved it would be deplorable and to be pitied.

Practitioners of CHIM, of course, would disagree that the self is illusionary.

CHIM can also be said as saying the whole world is part of YOU rather than the other way around, right? That's partially how I look at it

i think they would agree, but the thing is that in TES, everything is illusionary, which they also know and choose to follow their own lie.

Thus, from a Buddhist perspective, an act of supreme and self-destructive egoism. They are aware of the illusionary nature of existence and choose to perpetuate that illusion in their own image. An anti-nirvana, if you will.

There was a phrase about CHIM I made up in a dreamsleeve instance almost two years ago, admittedly condescending and aloof, but - blame me - I still hold it to be truthful and accurate (despite it not defining CHIM in the sense most would expect):

"CHIM is a recurring feature of the Elder Scrolls Lore board. Multitudes of so-called loremasters discuss until their tongues bleed, enjoying the sound of their own voices while trying to make their names known. All the while, those who know CHIM are laughing and changing the world."

Currently, I feel the urge to laugh and change the world.

And, remembering the words of another dearly missed friend, I'd also like to paraphrase him:
"Those people who just go outside and shoot mudcrabs for fun have figured out a lot already, whether they know it or not."

Whether you, dear reader, believe it or not: all of this post has to do with CHIM.

I still can't shake the feeling that the ideas of CHIM and Zero-Sum somehow subtly break the fourth wall.

If you want to describe it in that way then there's nothing subtle about it...

In reference to the Dragon Break in Daggerfall. The original event that broke the Dragon was most likely the PC, giving the totem to Mannimarco. Mannimarco then ascends into a god (Achieving CHIM? I guess it would be classified like this, or maybe more like what the selective did, which for that matter may be considered CHIM as well) Anyway, the event of Mannimarco becoming a god then broke the Dragon, which of course caused the 6 other endings to happen. AKA all sides get the totem and control Numinda.

Now then to clarify with the community, it appears that there is some confusion on CHIM. Most people assume that CHIM is the process by which one becomes a god. The Prophet Veloth described the Endeavor as the process by which one achieves CHIM, CHIM being the form that you achieved once the Endeavor has been completed.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#4

I thought the event that broke the dragon was neither of the endings, but the fact that the PC went to Aetherius and came back with the Mantella. I thought THAT was the deal--or rather, dragon--breaker.

It's not a perfect fit- it was retconned in, after all, but by rights time should have come undone when Numidium was activated.

This is why I think people shoudl just drop CHIM, it confuses everyoen too much. CHIM is not the be-all and end-all.

Manniamrca ascended to godhood. Just normal apotheosis. Not CHIM, the prolix tower or the Nu-man or any of that other crap.

CHIM is one of many methods of reaching the final subgradient. THAT is the be-all and end-all. Not CHIM. CHIM is a method (and the easiest one might I add) of reaching that point. The Dwemer created a giant robot to get there. Shezarr created a planet to (fail) to get there. Vehk just sat around pondering his navel (CHIM).

The godly presence of Manniamrco did not cauise the DB. Common misconception. It was actually the godly presence of Numdium that caused it. You see, when the "ON" button on the totem is pressed the god Numidium drops out of hypertime into whatever timeline and place that timeline's version of the robot happens to be. Then the newly summoned god begins tearing through time and generally mucking it up. It fused Mannmiarco with his god-self from another timeline, it fused Orsinium with tis provincial self from another timeline and fused Daggerfall, Sentinal etc with larger cities in other timelines. Once all was said and done and The Underking reached the final subgradient, the Jills had to get busy cleaning up Numidium's mess.

Yeah, but what is teh final subgradient necessarily? I've heard of it but I haven't deciphered what that is yet. Is it just going back to the "first brush of Anu and Padomay" mumbo jumbo or what. From what I see, it isn't just generic apotheosis.

It is truth. Apotheosis is simply a mortal gaining back his lost Et'Ada-ness, which is actually a step backwards.

Time and space are illusions. When and where are just convenient ways for weak ideas to order themselves. Order and Chaos are not seperate- their separation is also an illusion. In the beginnings of time order and choas where one and time and space did not exist. However, when order and chaos were polarized and time and space were born, this allowed the previously undefined universe full of possibilities to condense into something certain and predictable. This definition allowed individuals to form. The final Subgradient is the final journey. It is coming back to the start, except still retaining your self. If someone fails at reaching the final subgradient, they reach zero-sum, which is the exact same thing as the final subgradient except without retaining an identity. CHIM is just one of the many, many methods of reaching the final subgradient.

Ok. So CHIM in the end is a process; one of many pathways (such as Dividing by Zero) to the final subgradient and not necessarily an epitome of "enlightenment," in a sense. It's the most common-yet-uncommon way of trying to find what Lorkhan basically died for, am I not correct?

Well, its hard to say how common it is seeing as only one recorded being ever reached it.

Lorkhan was attempting to use another method, Nu-man I believe. He of course failed.

Oh, I realize only one person really reached it; thats why I sad "common-yet-uncommon:" it's the one that most people turn to (on the forums).

I need to learn more about this "Nu man" thing. Really the second true time I've come across it.

Here's the grand list. take your pick: