1. "RULES".

The "rules" of this topic are as follows.

• STAY ON TOPIC AND BE CONSTRUCTIVE IN YOUR REPLIES.
  
• Every post in this topic needs to revolve around spears and their potential place in Tamriel.
  
• Control yourself, and communicate with others in a calm and orderly manner, do not provoke or insult others. And try to back up your ideas on as many levels as you can, gameplay, roleplay, lore, cultural, realism/fantasy ect, ect..
  
• Neither I, nor the rest of the forum is interested in reading the enraged outbursts regarding spears and why they aren't in the game already.
  
• This post is about how to put spears into the game, not about compromising spears for something else that someone would rather see in the game, everyone is free to make a topic about something else you want to see in the game, just don't post it in here unless it is about spears.

I have made up these rules as an attempt to bring order and a nicer atmosphere around this topic and encourage an intelligent discussion. I have no way of enforcing these rules, they are merely put forth as a reminder that the people on the forum are exactly that, people. please try to respect the rules.

2. NORDS AND SKYRIM AND - WHY WOULD NORDS USE SPEARS?

Nords

The Nords of Skyrim are heavily based on nordic/germanic tribes of ancient northern europe from the looks of the concept art , their weaponry closely resembles that of vikings, to many of us it would seem natural that spears were included in the Nords' arsenal of weapons. However when attacking a city the nords do not bring cavalry or siege engines as described in "Children of the Sky" (a lore book from Oblivion) they blast the gates open with their voice. Perhaps they never had cavalry units. Horses are at a disadvantage in rugged terrain and may not be commonly used by nords. Their history is mostly that of civil disputes they may never have had the need to defend themselves from cavalry if that was the case, which would explain the lack of spears to some degree.

Skyrim

Skyrim is the home of nords, it's the northernmost part of Tamriel and the coldest part, its rugged terrain and woods would provide materials to craft spears. And judging from the terrain one might also assume that the fauna would be just as rugged and unfriendly. A spear would be a very useful tool for bringing down wildlife creatures such as trolls, wolfs, bears, boars or any other large ferocious creatures one might not normally want to engage at a swords length. Another theory could be that nords simply scream at wildlife instead of fighting it with weapons, however I have a hard time imagining the average-joe Nord huntsman going about his daily routine in the wilderness screaming at bears and whatnot, then bagging them and bringing them back to the city.

3. SPEARS AND THEIR PLACE IN THE GAME.

Spears come in many various shapes, sizes, material compositions and intended for various functions. The uses of spear throughout history has been as a hunting equipment on land, in rivers and at sea. But the spear has also seen many days in great battles throughout history by probably every organized military force imaginable and is still in use by some modern military units and martial arts. The vikings, which Nords are heavily based on, used spears most commonly for warfare and hunting, more so than axe and sword due to the ease of manufacturing and versatility of the spear, however vikings have not been known to wield the spear with great finesse and intricate techniques. Nor have any intricate sword, bow or axe wielding techniques been documented in relevance to vikings. The spear also holds some mytical value in ancient norse culture, Odin, the king of gods and god of kings wielded a spear.

Assuming that the Nords would use spears similar to viking spears, they would use single tipped spears without hooks, They would use the spears in melee and ranged combat, mounted on horse and by foot. however Nords are not a "copypaste" of a viking from the former real world, so it is possible that a nord would use a spear differently designed for completely different purposes that fit better into the world of Tamriel, and Skyrim specifically for the Nord culture, surroundings and way of life.

A spear can be an extension of your body, just like any other weapon, and just like any other weapon it can be an extension of your character and the way you choose to play him. You can be cruel and unjust with a spear pinning down creatures in a corner or poking slaves and prisoners stuck in a jail cell, or you can take down a band of raiders attacking a civilian. I feel like every weapon has it's own character that fits to it.
A champion will wield a sword, two-handed, or one-handed with a shield.
A barbarian will wield an axe or mace, dual wielding them or using a two-hander.
A rogue or assassin will wield a dagger and/or bow.
A defender/guard will wield either a spear with or without shield, or a mace, sword or axe with a shield.
A huntsman will wield a spear and/or bow.

These are just what I feel are the "archetypes" of the weapons mentioned, and from this point of view it would also make sense to include a spear in a roleplaying game where people are peculiar about the way they behave in the game-world and have a specific idea of what their character represents, mentally, physically, emotionally or otherwise.

3. PROS AND CONS OF THE SPEAR.

Pros

• You gain a serious amount of reach at the same time being able to pull the spear inwards to a closer and faster attack stance.
  
• Spears without hooks will deal less damage but be more reliable in a situation where you are faced with multiple opponents.
  
• Spears can counter a charging enemy very well if the spears' butt is planted against a surface or if you hold a stance to brace yourself for the incoming force.
  
• A spear thrown or lodged into an enemy will be irretrievable but it will reduce the enemies mobility, especially in confined areas, you can also tug at the spear to cause damage.
  
• The spear can prevent a dead enemy from rolling down a hill with valuable loot on his corpse, if the spear is lodged in him.
  
• You can wrap a cloth covered in pitch, oil or animal fat around the tip of the spear and light it on fire, you can then illuminate dark areas with your spear, burn and blind enemies as you stab them or set enemy tents/equipment on fire for an ambush.
  
• Many spears can be thrown at an enemy very effectively and can also be useful in melee combat, other melee weaponry lack the massive kinetic energy and accuracy a thrown spear has.
  
• If a hook-tipped spear misses an enemy and lands firmly planted in the ground, your enemy may attempt to rip it out of the ground unsuccessfully, you could use this window of opportunity to sprint into melee range and attack him from behind.
  
• Spears can be used as an extension of your body for reaching places you normally would not reach, for example: Poking a switch on a wall in a an inaccessible room through a gap of some kind. Poking prisoners or slaves in a jail without any risk. Picking up solid objects by poking them or snagging them with the hook on the tip. Poke an acrobatic enemy that has escaped onto a roof or higher ground.
  
• Spears can penetrate armored targets with greater ease than any weapons featured in TES except magic.
  
• Bladed spears can also cut in addition to maintaining it's piercing properties.

Cons

• A spear lodged to deep into an enemy may never be retrievable, typical scenario would be a horse, troll or bear that charged you and ran deep into the spear.
  
• Spears with hooked tips will have a tendency to get stuck in the bodies of enemies in the heat of battle and can be extremely difficult to pick out again.
  
• Spears penetrate armor, but still require great strength and precision to do so. The spear must also be composed of quality materials in order to penetrate quality armor without breaking.
  
• Spears will probably have very little effect on mechanical units even if it does penetrate armor, it does not bend or crush metal like a mace, axe or sword may.
  
• Spears can be very unwieldy in tight areas (caves, indoors, tightly grown forests) hook-tipped spears could get stuck in bushes, trees and other growths, the spear might be obstructed by trees making your sides and back vulnerable.
  
• The elongated shape combined with the way it is used makes the spear more prone to breaking than any other weapon in TES: Skyrim.
  
• A clever enemy will pick up and use the spear you threw at him if it does not hit him, perhaps a very hardy and clever fighter might pull out the spear from his body and throw it at you even if you did hit him with it.
  
• It is much more easy for an enemy to grab a hold of a spear than a dagger, sword or mace.
  
• A spear generally isn't as rigid as a sword, mace or dagger and will bend more easily depending on how extended it is.
  
• Changing your grip on a spear can be difficult if wielding a shield on your other hand.
  
• Gripping a spear with one hand makes it less stable (or "tight") as it may pivot around the point at which the spear is gripped, as a result the spear will more easily be knocked away by enemies.

Sort of a pro but also a con.. a conpro of sorts.:P
1. Depending on the length of the spear the various uses will be compromised or enhanced depending on the enemy approaching you. A very long spear will swing slower but hold greater force at the tip and be more effective against cavalry or heavy animals. A short spear will swing faster but hold less force at the tip, being more effective in close combat. A medium (man sized spear) will have the best of two worlds, being able to grip it closely at the tip for fast close combat or holding it far far for impaling charging enemies and swinging broad defensive strikes. It will also be more effective than both the small and the very large spear when thrown. Too large and it won't be thrown far enough, too small and the impact will be weak

4. HOW TO INCORPORATE SPEARS INTO THE GAME WORLD?

As you may have gathered from this post, the spear is a very versatile weapon. So how does one go about putting this into the game, respecting the weapon and it's properties but at the same time keep the game balanced so that not everyone plays a "spear-character"? The spear also needs to be fun but maybe not the most entertaining of all the weapons in the game, it is also important for every weapon and weapon combination to have their own feel and character as well as the spear.

How the spears fit into the game from a gameplay perspective is also important. I think there are some nifty things that can be done with spears and gameplay in mind that could be very fun.

Can you imagine seeing an NPC picking up a spear that nearly hit him and using it against you, it would breath some life into the NPCs don't you think?

The thought of exploring a dungeon with spear holding an ignited oiled cloth wrapped on its tip might be very fun and give dungeon crawling a primitive feel and make wandering in the landscape during night a bit more immersive. It isn't very "elder-scrollsy" in the sense that you would fickle around your inventory to apply oil or animal fat to a cloth and then apply the prepared cloth to a spear and then ignite that spear by holding it in a open fire, or by flint and tinder, I guess a lot of effort would be put into the all of that by the player, it would feel a tad "minecraftsy".

A NPC might grip the hilt of your spear, making it feel like you had lost some control of the spear and would have to struggle against the NPC for the control as you move the mouse and attempt to aim at him and strike. The spear could also be knocked to the side if an enemy hit the outer part of an extended spear.

It would probably be best if the character changed stances (or spear grips if you will) individually without the player directly telling him to, seeing as a warrior or hunter would do this without really thinking much of it but doing it rather instinctively, leaving the player to focus more on attacking, shielding and spotting openings which already requires some skill. Much in the same way that telling your character to move his left foot and then his right foot would just be overcomplicating the act of walking to an unnecessary degree.

It would be fun to see the spear literally break or shatter in half from countering a heavy charge. Spears breaking might be quite a downer in mid combat, but this also happens to every other weapon in the game, so I don't see why not. The spear should be repairable even though literally breaking in half, having some legendary spear irreparably break in the hands of your character can't possibly be good for his reputation in the game world, and it would be really sad to see a spear of legend destroyed like that permanently. However I do think that throwing your spear and losing it is a legitimate reason that results directly from your own recklessness, if a spear is that valuable it shouldn't be thrown around in the first place knowing that NPCs might use it against you or even steal it! The recklessness of willingly throwing your million dollar spear at someone should be penalized as it is not a result of an inevitable deterioration that every weapon in the game world faces.

Greetings Mohfuu

As other will say there are many spear related posts in these forums..

I will also say that I am currently working on a mod which will add spears and pole weapons to the game as well as many others. There is a Forum link in my signature.

There really isn't much else to add.

Unless you know something about the engine we do not, this might be impossible to do correctly, as was the case with Oblivion.

I hate to be downer and possibly breaking one of the rules but...

This post proves why spears won't be in the game. It's just way too complicated to put in the game make it simple and fun, while still keeping it's own unique characteristics.
Like, I can't see the enemy grabbing the spear without the addition of a quick-time event. And we don't like quick-time events...

pfffft, dude, I have like 50 hard copies of the engine software in my closet.

I'd like to see spears and halberds. Would be fun to fight against and maybe try myself.

the last spear sank with Vvardenfell.

Your post is obviously well thought out and took a significant amount of time to put together.

But I'm not sure what you're really looking for or what you'll find that's not already out there.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam already!

One pro for having spears is that you can beat dead horses with them. Give it a rest people. Todd himself confirmed that spears in a traditional sense are out. Move on.

why not a halberd(sp)
they are like the more futurist spears anyway

I'm not really sure what you look to gain here as Todd Howard has specifically stated Spears will not be in Skyrim.
But uh, I guess Spears do make sense lore wise and would add to roleplaying. But nothing we can do about that now to be quite honest.

No, he said they are not in.

People seem to think the entire dev team just goes on PR, or takes a breather the last 8 months of dev time.

Count em out, 8 months. Which means an entire 7 months of working on THE GAME.

jeez

he said spears in the traditional sense are not in.

PC Gamer's weapon/handedness diagram confirmed polearms, with a picture of a halberd. halberds were classified as spears in Morrowind.

halberds are not spears in the traditional sense.

also it's more like six months at this point. the game is almost definitely going to go gold in mid- to late-October, meaning no more active dev time. i'm fully aware that QA doesn't all happen in one period post-development, but they're going to reach a point fairly soon where there won't be any more time to implement, balance, and test new things.

Indeed they would be very difficult to include in the game, in a realistic and free-flowing manner but I would argue that it is at the very least possible albeit very difficult (but worth it), and hopefully after the games' release.

As for the fact that spears will not be in Skyrim, I have come to terms with that (even though this topic may have seemed otherwise). but that does not have to mean that spears never will be implemented. I don't expect the developers to just magically conjure spears up hastily before the release, nor would I want them to be implemented in such a manner. They need to be done properly and with as much quality as any other weapon in the game. This is the spear, a very very basic piece of equipment which has been around since the dawn of mankind and has lived up to the modern days we live in.

What I really hope for is some kind of community made mod, or preferably a DLC from Bethesda themselves which will include spears in a realistic way. At the very least that Bethesda considers including them in potential future Elder Scrolls games. The purpose of this post was to reinforce the suggestion of implementing spears and proving that spears do and should have a place in not only Skyrim but probably Tamriel as a whole, and proving that on as many levels as possible.

As for my purpose, it was to start an intelligent discussion regarding spears and their place in the game.

Fixed!

I was trying to be diplomatic...

I think if they don't have the time to get spears in they could add them as a new weapon in a dlc, I don't know why they did not do that in OB but I think that they could and should for one of the dlcs after the game comes out, they should have all the time in the world and they know thousands of people would buy a dlc that included spears (not a dlc like horse armor that just added spears) so they would profit from it.



you make no sense, we know spears can be in the game, there were spears in NV. so... idk, pay more attention?



no he did not, qoute below highlights the basics of why they could still be in.



to add more on that statement todd did not even say that spears were out all together, he said that spears (spears specificly and not other kinds of pole arms) would be put into the game if they still had the time once every thing else was done, which is kinda a soft way of padding out the spear enthusist outrage if they don't end up having enough time. but the point is that spears are not in any way confirmed to be not in game. and also said, as already pointed out, that other spear like weapons would be in game as well.

I also find it strange that in Oblivion there isn't a single spear, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Oblivion a depiction of a world and a time in Tamriel just like every TES game should be?

Imagine call of duty without assault rifles, I would dare claim the spear to be no less essential in the settings of the elder scroll series as the the modern assault rifles are in the military forces of today, even more so.

I.Love.You

Oh yes, those spears were perfect, I remember how I could stab people and block other weapons with it, also it flew such a natural way when it was thrown. No... wait, no they didn't.

If they're going to implement spears, they might as well do it right, and not just rush together some harpoon shooter thing.

I think I could go about those points and write which are good and which aren't, but I'm lazy.

Search function.

thats true, they should make actual melee spears (and speculation on the quality of NV spear animation is based on perspective) for SK if they do at all and they should be good. but I was responding to the statement that spears could not be made for SK. which is flat out wrong. I also should have pointed out that there were spear mods for OB.