I think it's a bit silly ending up being the leader of a guild. Once I'm the leader and the quest line is finished I leave and never ever go back, there's no reason to go back, no responsibilities and nothing to do. It would make more sense that, as you say, you reach a suitably high level but one that takes into account your adventuring lifestyle.

I thought the Imperial Cult campaign in Morrowind made a lot of sense, when they told you you can't progress any further because it would take full time devotion and that doesn't suit one of your lifestyle (or words to that effect).

what is it with people and their "realisim" in a fantasy game.

Why would you not want to join all guilds? I mean sure logically it makes sense and seems like a good idea but do you really want to go around and say that once you join the fighters guild you cant be in the theives guild, or Dark Bortherhood.

well thats dumb, youll say thats a good idea now but when your blocked of a good 15 hours of gameplay just for a random request...

There is no reason to be rude.

The issue here is whether or not we would be destined to lead the guild, and I'm hoping this time around we aren't, and moving up to leader while working in the guild is just one option. And Immersion is APPLIED CORRECTLY lot because that is the selling point of this series for many people. For me, the most fun from these games comes from the world and its its logic. If the game lacked sound logic in too many cases then it would lose the people who look for the logic. Bethesda has created a world and as these game progress in development the logic should also improve. Freedoms and choices are some of the best features of these games. This time around Bethesda should at least consider story lines that don't force you into a leadership role should you not want it. And furthermore, you can do a lot for a company and not lead it...In this case people would become valued members of the guilds they participate in and when the time comes, be offered that top position. People could accept the title or remain a valued high ranking member, and continue working for the guild.

Bethesda this time around chose quest lines that make it your destiny to reach leader status once you complete a certain number of their quests. The quest lines were nice but ultimately left the character with broken guilds, and I'd rather not inherit a guild on its last legs especially since I've only been a mage for 60 days, and I'm not even a master of conjuration yet.. But that is my opinion of course. Maybe they went that route so they could save time, and devote more time on other areas of the game.

Thats a good point actually...well done sir :thumbsup:

Fallout new Vegas did the faction thing pretty well in some respects. As far as I can remember, faction members would all address you in a way according to your rank, you could also pull rank/rep with the faction in conversation to complete missions more easily etc.

The BAD thing about FNV though Imo is that you couldn't complete everything because of the reputation system. I don't mind that people in opposing factions get pissed at me for killing some of them, but I hate re-playing the whole game, so I want to be able to do everything in one playthrough. An easy way to solve this would be to create a 'blood debt' like in Oblivion's theives guild, or create quests to re-earn the truts of the guild. This way, both sides get what they want.

Nice of you to paraphraze and change my entire topic just to prove a point. If you dont have a reasonable response for someone who has a differing opinion, then dont even reply instead of doing low attempts like that

I wouldn't mind more choice in the guilds, as well as benefits that affect the main quest. Unfortunately, the end of the main story will end up the same otherwise we will have another Dragon Break scenario (time becomes non-linear for a few years, making possible paths in history possible) like in Daggerfall. Its not unreasonable for an "evil" character to remove the dragon threat if it means their own survival, while a "good" character would do it to save others,

I wouldn't be completely adverse to capping at a "grunt" rank. My dream thieves guild involves taking over and training a small group of thieves, with such annoyances like weekly dues and having to bail your mates out the hole. Not the boss but not a completely useless member. You'd be the go-to guy for the members who need a hand for a small job, or for arranging certain items to change owners. It'd have more flexibility, as well - can you see the head honcho doing everything himself?

Try to keep things civil on here.
Now, I do have to agree about guilds completely blocking access for your membership in another guild, Its not a good idea. It would interfere with some people's experience, but its better to offer constructive criticism and reasonable alternative instead of just bashing the idea.
To keep the realism (if guilds are known to clash), they may add extra requirements to your admission test instead of the usual background check, or may you to remove yourself from another guild. Leadership positions could also allow you to re-build terms with other guilds, removing the tension between the two.

:shrug:

As I recall, Morrowind didn't let you join all groups. Had to pick one House, couldn't do all Guilds, etc.... part of it is for replay value (try a different path next game), part of it is because..... well, those people wouldn't want you in all their groups at once.

(You'd best avoid Fallout: New Vegas, btw.... huge amounts of the questlines there are mutually exclusive. You can't even "do everything" in two playthroughs, I don't think.)

Exactly. When I get to the top, I don't suddenly wanna become bored. There should be more quests after you become leader, like one's involving politics with other guilds, and maybe you could build your own chapter.

Your absolutely right about that one. You have to do 4 play throughs to see all the endings (NCR, Legion, Mr. House, Personal) and many factions clashed a lot. Of course, you couldn't take as high of positions in Fallout: New Vegas either, so you didn't have the ability to influence the factions opinion.

I would like to be able to lead any Guild. I think it should always be distined that way.

But I want to be the leader. Its fine if you don't, but I do. It shouldn't be removed because it doesn't make sense or something like that. Its cool to rp as the archmage, spending lots of time in the University, tweaking spells and making potions. Sure, people should realize you're their leader, I'm with everyone on that. There should be some administrational duties you gain after becoming the head, and other things the archmage needs to do, that would add a lot to the factions.

I'm all for options, and if you don't want to be a leader then you shouldn't have to. But the possibility of being a leader shouldn't be removed either. I dont' see why there can't be both. I respect your opinion if you don't want to be a leader, but I expect you to in tern be the same with me and respect my want of being the leader. Extremely dangerous quests should only be given to high ranking members, those who can be trusted to finish the task. To finish the main questline of the faction, you should be pretty high ranked anyway. Its not up to the person when their company gives them a promotion. However, I can live with becoming the leader becoming optional.

If you choose to be the leader and then walk out, they should send summons after you when a task needs your attention. If you choose to tell the messengers to do as they see fit, the guild will upoint the number to as the leader so you can just keep going. If you do eventually check in, they'll probably ask you to either step down or be more serious about the possition. It should behave in a believable manner, but the option to be the leader should still be there.

And I'm all for a minimum skill level to enter into guilds, but once your in ranking up shouldn't matter. Sometimes its not about how good you are at something, but how good you are at using what you have.

Along those lines, the option to join all the guilds should be open as well. The fighter's guild isn't going to know that you're in the thieves guild, and even if you're caught stealing something they wouldn't know. Only way they could know you're in the theives guild is either if you tell them or you get caught with the Gray Fox. The Dark Brotherhood isn't all knowing either. They wouldn't know you're in the thieves guild unless you get caught...and even if they do find out after you're caught maybe they'll just keep an extremely close eye on you and ask you to kill some higher up thieves members when the need arises. Factions shouldnt be the new Oblivion Guards in Skyrim. There should be a reason to how they know exactly what you're doing and who its with, and they should react acordingly with their best intrests.

I always disliked the fast-track to succes that were the guilds in oblivion. First you do menail tasks for a few days and suddendly you are the most trusted member of the guild. Some guilds handled it better than others though. I think the fighters and mages guild handled it horribly.
But I had a thought. I do think you should be able to advance to leadership of any guild, and I trust them to write a good story to bring you there. But with a questmaking system that can essentially create simplistic random quests there is no reason that you cant have essentialy unending minor quests that wont advance your guild rank. It would be like playing an actual member of the guidl who just does it as a job and dont aim to solve some enourmous questline ending with them on the top of the guild. Just walk into a guildhall and ask if there's something that needs doing. No need for a lot of dialogue or stuff, just go there, kill them, bring back their nadgers. Add some generic dialogue to the questgivers and off you are. It would be simplsitic but I always wanted to be able to just be a member of a guild. I always joined the mages guild to get access to the spellmaking and enchanting, but it felt kind of silly to just abandon a big questline right there and mooch around using their stuff without actually doing anything for the guild. I liked that about the thieves guild, that you could just ignore the questline and follow the advise to just steal stuff and still feel like a member of the guild.

I agree with you on basically everything in that post, i like options, would love the options...i don't see why you think I'm not seeing it that way. The best way they could do it, should they have the resources to commit, would be to have a nice quest chain in each guild that brings you to a high rank most players will be happy with that perpetually gives them things to do in the guild, but should you want to take it a step further, you would get a thrilling quest line to become the leader, where the guild goes through whatever happens in your quest line and after, you still have nice tasks as leader once you get there, and 3 adoring fans.

These are my thoughts exactly. With the radiant AI/Quest function, assuming they make it functional with guilds and what not, Bethesda can potentially throw quests at guild-aligned players based on their level, rank in the guild, etc. As you climb ranks in the guild, the quests become slightly more varied and more difficult as the radiant quest tool will adjust and provide you with a challenge more appropriate for your rank. If you decide to remain at a certain rank, then tasks ranging in that difficulty will be given to you.

For example, a low ranked member of the Fighter's Guild would be given tasks such as kill x, deliver y, etc. A mid ranked member of the Fighter's Guild would be given similar quests that are possibly far more challenging and more varied. And finally, high ranking member/leader of the Fighter's Guild, would be given tasks more appropriate to their rank, mostly administrative with the occasional "dance with the devil" style quest thrown in to mix things up.

As a leader of the fighter's guild, Bethesda can make it so players are allowed to assign quests to members within the guild. Naturally, I would like these members to be physical people you can meet in the game, and not just a random, sorted list of non-existent members, but this is all up to the dev-team. Assuming this is the case however, and quests are assigned by you to people within your guild, one of your advisors could bring up a scroll containing a list of people seeking guild help. Each task would be marked with colors such as green, orange, and red. Green would indicate that the task is relatively menial and easy. Orange would mean the task is slightly difficulty, and red would indicate the job as being extremely dangerous and difficult. Based on these colors, you would have the option to assign a member of the guild to the job. Sort of like the AC: Brotherhood game, you could assign a more veteran member of the guild to a job and have a lower ranked member tag along so he/she can gain experience and learn.

I can drone on for paragraphs about how they can make the guild experience slightly more interesting, but I would rather keep it short and sweet as this isn't my topic. Nonetheless, what I wrote above is just a sample of my idea. It would be up to Bethesda to find common ground and set a medium.