In Oblivion and Morrowind, upon reaching the next level the player chose three attributes to raise. Some attributes were given bonuses based on what skills the player increased the level prior. If a player increased skills several times that were governed by a single attribute before leveling up, that attribute would receive a larger bonus. This was the only way to permanently increase a player's base attribute values.

This system does not seem likely to remain unchanged in Skyrim. One reason the system worked in previous games was the player had good control over their skill increases. A player could increase particular skills strategically and know what bonuses to expect. Typically, a player could pick easily controlled major skills (skills that a player must choose to use, unlike athletics which a player must use to play the game) that span in governed attributes, and increase minor skills accordingly to reach desired attribute bonuses, for minor skills did not bring the player closer to leveling up. The downside of this system was if you just played the game to your preference and picked major skills governed by similar attributes, the player would inherently level inefficiently, leaving potential points behind and lost, and even in some cases leaving the player weaker upon level up as the world leveled up as well. In Skyrim, choosing skills to major is obviously not returning, but this adds a strain to the previous system. Now, increasing any skill brings the player closer to leveling up, making the player use all his or her skills far more carefully than before if he or she wishes to level attributes efficiently. Not only that, but higher level skills are scaled to bring the player closer to leveling up than lower level skills, making it harder to gauge how quickly a skill will bring one to the next level. If this system of choosing attributes to raise with relative bonuses were to return in Skyrim, a player would have little control over attribute bonuses. This leads me to my question.

We know that when we level up in Skyrim, we will be given a choice to increase health, magicka, or fatigue, followed by a choice of perks; but where do attributes fit into this? Will there be some choice to raise select attributes similar to previous games? Will attributes automatically be assigned their bonuses and increases as skills are increased? Or will attributes be fixed in a system similar to Fallout 3? I ask this because I have not seen much mention of attributes in the info released so far and am wondering if anyone knows; and even if you do not know, how do you think attributes should be treated in Skyrim?

From what we know, attributes are gone and we only have health stamina and magick now..

I don't know if Attributes made the cut yet but then again something has to contribute to how encumberence is going to work. I think Attributes will be in Skyrim but will have a much lesser role then in the previous games.

I don't understand why they can't do attributes the exact same way they do skills.

Run a lot? Your endurance increases.

Swing a massive axe? Your strength goes up.

Study magic all day? Intelligence is enhanced.

To me attributes should be treated just like skills with the exception of being much harder to increase in general.

I have to say I'm opposed to them removing them entirely. When two warriors of equal skill face each other, the one with the physical (attributes) advantage will most likely prevail.

Attributes are gone. Period. Live with it.
In Skyrim, only your skills matter, and most of them behave much like attributes did before. Instead of having Strength and a skill for each weapon type there are now the Single-handed/Two-handed skills with perks for each weapon type. Instead of Personality and skills for persuading and mercentile, there's now the skill Speechcraft with perks for persuading and mercentile. And so on. You get the picture. None of the aspects are gone. It's just that the roles previously held by attributes and skills have now shifted to skills and perks.

I agree with you.

I am convinced that attributes are gone.

The closest thing to proof I've seen was in the game informer article. It stated that there would be a radial menu system which consisted of Skills, Inventory, Map, and Magic. The only place that it would make sense for there to be attributes is in the Skills section of the menu, which happens to be the only section of the menu that we have a screenshot of...there were no sign of attributes in the screenshot.

Yes, it's still speculation, but enough evidence for me to conclude that attributes are cut.

I agree with this. As an avid Ultima Online fan for many years, this is the way that game handles the same 3 attributes, though called Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence, and it works great.

At the same time, I'm confident that whatever Bethesda has done with attributes, either removing them entirely or something different, will work for Skyrim.

If there won't be attributes, I guess encumberence is going to be according to fatigue. And there should be a new fatigue system if it'll be like I say. If you won't sleep or eat, you'll have low fatigue, wich will affect combat, mining/wood-chopping and encumberence. You'll also lose fatigue during sprinting, combat, jumping, working, etc.

Edit:
I also found this: "Gaining a level also grants the player level-specific skill abilities and an increase in health along with an option for a greater increase in health, or an increase in magicka or stamina." here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim, at UESP.
This shows that upon gaining a level, the attribute-choosing system that we are familiar with will no longer exsist.

Attributes haven't been confirmed either way.
If they are inn I would like them too do it like in DF were you got some points you could diistribute as you wished.

It must be noted that this hasn't been confirmed, however, there is a not uncommon theory to this effect. As of now, nothing has been said of attributes one way or another, although given that magicka, strength and stamina are now ones you can put points into when you level up, it would certainly seem plausible, because in past games, these stats were determined by your attributes. Your health increases every time you level up by an amount determined by your endurance, your intelligence is a static number that is based on your intelligence and with any bonuses from race, birthsign and such added in, and fatigue... I honestly don't actually know how its calculated, but I know it also factors certain attributes in. Therefore, why would Bethesda need to make these formerly derived stats become ones you put points into upon leveling up? Possibly because the attributes they're derived from no longer exist, especially since I really don't see what endurance and intelligence would do if they're no longer used to increase health and magicka. Maybe this doesn't mean all attributes are gone, of course, it could just be that intelligence and endurance have been done away with, though if Bethesda wanted to remove some attributes, I wouldn't have hought it would be those ones. If an attribute needed to be removed from the Elder Scrolls, I'd have gone with luck as my first choice, at this point, I'm really not sure what to think.



That's also a piece of evidence that seems to be the main basis for the speculation that attributes are gone, all I can say is if they're NOT, I'm really not sure where they'd go in such a system, so it seems likely.

Previously, I had speculated that attributes would be replaced with perks, for example, you could have a strength perk which increases your melee damage and carrying capacity, and you could take it multiple times to gain higher bonuses. But given that we've learned that perks act like sub skills, allowing you to further specialize within a skill, such as having perks for different weapon types under each weapon skill, that seems unlikely.



As I see it, the problem with such a system is that it might force players to alter their playstyle based on what attributes they want to raise, using skills tied to said attributes even if it really doesn't fit their character to do so, this problem was present with past games' attribute multipliers too, but at least there, you could decide which attributes to raise upon leveling up, so you could raise attributes that aren't tied to skills you've been using, it would just be slower, if they made it so attribute increases are controlled by the skills you use, then you would have no choice but to use skills tied to the attributes you want to raise. Want your thief to be able to carry more loot? Too bad, he has to use a huge ax for the next ten levels, your thief doesn't use axes? Tough luck.

Honestly, I'd prefer they just do what every other RPG that lets you increase your attributes when leveling does, which is let you increase whichever ones you want independently from the skills you use. It's simple, straightforward, and gives players the most control, thus allowing you to develop your character how you choose.



Such a system really wouldn't lead to skills fulfilling the role of attributes, though, as attributes applied general bonuses to your character's abilities, some of which weren't only useful when using certain skills, strength, for example, aside from increasing your melee damage, also increased your carrying capacity, on the other hand, while I have no doubt that you're skills will increase your damage (Though only with weapons that fall under that skill, I highly doubt they'll effect how much you can carry in any way, really, it sounds to me like what skills do is pretty much the same as in past games, it's just that under skills there are also perks, and these serve to define your character more than skills, so I don't think there's really anything in the system used in past Elder Scrolls games they can accurately be compared with.

Attributes aren't confirmed yet.

Maybe. Then again, how many of us actually noticed how much our attributes affected our success with skills? I know I didn't, because I would end up using one attribute for only one skill, two at most, and since both the skills and attributes improved at pretty much the same speed, it was as if only the skills mattered. The only benefits I felt from attributes (in Oblivion) were the encumberance, Health, Fatigue, Magicka and movement speed. Invent something new for encumberance and relocate movement speed to Athletics and you pretty much get what we'll get in Skyrim. Everything else is just too subtle to matter - guess that's the reasoning behind the decision of the devs. Todd really doesn't like numbers whose effects you don't notice .

As long as it isn't the "if you don't use xyz skills you are punished for the level" like some of the past games I'll be happy.

Exacly. AND I LOVE IT!

So wait.... on character creation when I choose my strength, that's it? I can't get any stronger wielding a sword and shield? That would mean an encumbrance system based on strength would never be increased when you level/ :sadvaultboy:

I'm curious why people are saying that attributes are gone.

Last I heard, there has simply been no mention of them. The absence of evidence is not evidence of an absence.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they aren't gone, either, just that we have no word one way or the other. So far they've just talked Health, Magicka and Stamina. For all we know, attributes could be handled like in Fallout, where they're mostly static. But they may not, we don't know.

This is something that should be asked to Pete on Twitter but I'll doubt he'll answer it unless he's having a good day.

maybe you get perks that increase inventory

I wish people could stop saying that it wont be in. It's not confirmed yet.

I think attributes stay. I know classes leave

I would like a fixed attribute system like in Fallout. This would simplify the leveling process whilst simultaneously making it better than Oblivion's. Ofc, they could just cut them altogether and contribute to people whining about streamlined RPGs (even more).

Ok its simple this is what todd said himself...


'No more agility to build up so don't have to keep jumping around

Now we know intel doesnt exist because it has nothing to do now and we know endurance also doesnt exist for the same reason and this.... so do you realy think any atributes exost?

Everything rhey did can be done 1000x better with race and perks.


It worked in mw because a so called mage was realy just a warrior who used magic some... it didnt work in ob.