A long, long time ago (okay, a year and a half ago) I released the http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=28305, an Excel spreadsheet that listed close to 18,000 mods. It didn't get much attention, probably because it required Excel or Open Office, and I eventually quit working on it due to lack of interest.

A few weeks back, I stumbled across http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/Main_Page, a site with a large list of mods (about 1300). I got bored one day and started adding some stuff to the site from my list. It has its good points (an auto-updating master list for each category, as well as the site as a whole) and its bad ones (if you add a page with an outside link - as every single entry has - you have to go through spam protection; it also has ads that slow the loading of pages). After adding a half-dozen or so entries, I decided to branch out on my own, using another wiki site that I really like. With Wikidot, I can use CSS to customize the site, and I'm already familiar with the code format, which makes my life a lot easier.

Anyway, to my question: Before I spend a buttload of time working on this, I want to see if it's worth doing. I've learned from my past mistakes (or so I like to hope), so I thought a simple poll here would be good to gauge potential interest. As a preview, I've whipped together a few things:

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/local--files/files/Homes.JPG

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/local--files/files/West%20Weald.JPG

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/local--files/files/West%20Weald1.JPG

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/local--files/files/entry.JPG

I included the alt West Weald page as a possibility - I wanted to see what the Archive (which is laid out exactly like that) would look like online. I rather like it, overall: it's clean, simple, and easy to create, as opposed to making a different page for every single entry (can you imagine 17,000+ pages??). On the downside, it's a little devoid of information (but it does include links), and tables are a little harder to edit (all that data's jumbled together, and I can't put white space in between rows due to Ajax formatting).

If it goes forward, the wiki will be set up like that: categories like Items, Weapons, Homes, and Creatures will be broken down into subcategories so it's much easier to find things. TESNexus has vastly improved their categorization system in the last year, but not all sites are as organized, and even the Nexus has problems with people putting stuff in odd places. This way, everything will be under the same unified system: looking for a mod that adds swords? Go to Items/Weapons. Want a new mount? Creatures/Mounts. Etc.

So... ideas? Comments? Suggestions?

Edit: I've removed the poll since things are going in a drastically different direction and I'd rather not create more confusion.

Well, I think this is *much* more useful than what you did before. If you ask me if I'll actually use it, I'm not really sure; I don't play much, I don't "go looking" for mods much. You'll need an opinion (or five) from mod users, but I do think this is much more usable than your previous tool.

Vac

It's a good idea, I think it will be a useful handy tool for searching for mods if done well.

IMHO I think each mod should have it's own entry with as much info as possible, and all that information "categorized" or sorted by fields instead of the typical "article" entry in wich everything is a big plain text, so all of that info could be used to improve the search engine... because in order to make it outstands I think it should offer a much improved search engine than TESNexus' one... again, it's just an opinion, but sorting and ordering all mods under ONE coherent criteria it's a good thing but maybe it's not enough to make people use that wiki rather than searching for mods directly in the sites they're going to download from, so at least for me, the key factor that would determine wether I'm using it or not, rather than being it more or less exhaustive would be how easy and useful is to search for specific mods.

To make it as flexible as I'd like it to be I'd suggest using a mix of a Cathegories and Tags system to classify mods, so every mod could fall under ONE and no more than one (sub)cathegory but they could keep also some other important info like "Lore-friendly" or "Lore-breaking", or "Anime-like", "Terror", etc, that one could search for, or rather using more than one cathegories tree that could overlap each other so it allows for a complex search.

Maybe that's asking too much, but to be realistic, let's say I want to add some armor mods, if I could search for (non anime looking armour) & (not lore-breaking armor) & (realistic looking) & (already placed in the game) (I don't care, either throught leveled list or with their own quests) then I'd be using it a lot, but if I have to spread over hundreds or thousands of pages with armor mods to get the ones I like I'm rather searching for some recommended mods list or something.

Anyway this is only my personal opinion, I don't want to discourage you from doing it otherwise, if you finally take the challenge you'll have all my support and in any case it will be a useful mod archieve. Don't get bothered please I was just dreaming how wonderful could be a perfect mods database.

good luck!

Walker, while your initiative is laudable, I'd say *Don't waste your time".

1. We have "hundreds" of lists already, they all get old at some point. The only one that keeps on living is "BOSS". It is an effort of a team, I don't know how many people but my guess is five possibly more. And how they maintain such tenacity and commitment to the project simply astonishes me.

I think any site or list only maintained by one person will run out of date at some point.

2. TES V has been announced. In one year, the focus of a good number of us will change. Instead of trying to build a resource for the "vanishing" game, I'd stand ready to build something for the new upcoming game, if at all.

3. The aspect of quality of the listed mods: You may list 30 play house mods, but only 15 of them work bugfree and are well done... you cannot test yourself 18.000 mods....

3. The gamer looking for mods does have many resources at his disposal already. While many lists are more or less old (see 1.) they are mostly of some use still. Then there is the search function on Tesnexus. And finally players keep asking in the forums for advice. Your project is totally well-meant but just not feasible, IMHO. I would not invest the time. :no:

+1

My 2p: at this stage in the game, it's simply not feasible to start cataloging Oblivion mods seriously. However, now is a very good time to get a wiki for such a thing up and running, as you have 11 months to fine tune and iron out bugs, not to mention become an established resource in the community (or to be), before Skyrim is released, at which point you can actively start adding serious content.

I think a sister site to UESP Wiki solely devoted to mods would be a very good idea. Unfortunately, the Oblivion Mod Wiki is pretty much dead in the water to my eyes (not an insult to anyone who works on it), as it's not got that much content, hardly anyone uses/references it so there's not really a community behind it, it keeps having site issues, and it looks god awful. Having a fresh start, but building off the success of UESP Wiki (you might want to try working with them, I'm sure they'd be happy to share tricks of the trade and knowledge, etc.), would be a very good thing.

In my eyes, UESP Wiki is one of the best subject-specific wikis out there that I've seen (I'd even say it beats TV Tropes, which is ugly but awesome. Or at least addictive), and a mod-specific companion to that would be a real gem, standing alongside both it and the CS Wiki (another great success) as a 'trinity' that finally covers all of Oblivion's (or in this case, Skyrim's) bases.

So yes, set a wiki up. Start filling it with a bunch of mods you're interested in, and spend 11 months making it practically perfect in terms of everything but volume of content, with a focus on Skyrim rather than Oblivion (though you might want to try having some Oblivion mods just to fill the time gap and generate some interest in the wiki). Then, when Skyrim hits, we can all go nuts adding content to the game and the wikis (UESP, CS and this) all at the same time, so there will be little lag in information being created and shared.

Wrinklyninja, you say all the right things about the current Mod Wiki. Would you envision a revival of the existing Mod Wiki or rather a completely new one built from scratch? Me too I could foresee having a mod wiki which teaches or describes how to mod the game from a player standpoint. Instead yes, its focus should not be on providing a library catalogue on available mods.

What I'd envisage is a bridge between UESP, which deals almost entirely with the vanilla games (and IMHO the small mods section it does have there doesn't really fit), and the CS Wiki, which deals almost entirely with modding from a modder's point of view, that is mod creation. There's a gaping hole there in terms of using mods, which is partly filled by other sites (such as TES4:POSItive) and various mod lists. However, I think that such a community resource would be much better applied to a wiki-based model, where knowledge is much easier added to/updated than on a site where content creation is restricted to a few people, if not one person.

Such a wiki could host the collective knowledge of the community, including stuff like the Mods FAQ and Tomlong's info, not to mention be a repository of mod lists and various articles people have written on mods and usage. It could also extend to cover research topics such as things like what happens when BSAs conflict, whether the 4GB patch does anything, etc.

However, I do still think that a listing of available mods is still a good thing to have. However, I think that the focus should be on providing reviews of mods by users, which hasn't really ever been done to my knowledge. Pages might include a title, download links and a short description (like an abstract in a scientific report), then defer to the download locations for any addition 'author-driven' info. Perhaps have the option for a few screenshots, but only a few, since TES Nexus can host user's images. The meat of a mod's entry though would be various reviews by users, and another great thing would be a 'notes' section, covering tips and tricks for dealing with bugs in un-updated mods, notices that people should be aware of, any info relating to the mod that isn't covered by its documentation. Essentially the sort of thing you might find in shorter form in your BOSSlog.

Again, these are just thoughts I've had while writing this, but I think such a system would be good. As for whether to strip out the mod wiki and start again, or start up a completely separate site, it depends. Using the OMW would be more advantageous, as it has already got content, but that content is built on rubbish foundations. If it were possible, I'd probably choose to try overhauling OMW, but that depends on conditions like access and what the server has available, etc. I'm not an expert on web hosting, since I've just got my own server for personal use and haven't needed to host things generally so haven't needed a commercial solution. Arthmoor'd know though, I think.

However, it all falls down again to having enough skilled people with enough time. As a very strong modding community, such people are always already busy. As they say, if ideas were a dime a dozen, I'm sure we'd all be millionaires by now.

...All this talk of sites and servers has made me realise I need to update my media center and backup sites. Time, why are you so miserly!?!

+1 for what wrinklyninja said. The "market" for Oblivion sites is already saturated. But you could get a good jump on Skyrim with a working site.

Thanks for the responses. Foresight is a good thing.


Well yeah... being able to FIND stuff is what would make or break it. That's the main reason I did the first archive - instead of searching through hundreds or even thousands of mods to find what you're looking for, you can open up a list and scan through the descriptions to see what might be interesting. I've used on occasion when people are looking for mods, and it usually takes less than five minutes to find something.

TommyH (had to cut down on quotes):

1. BOSS is a utility, not an all-encompassing mod list. And yeah, they have a huge team (something like a dozen people now) working on various aspects - coding, Oblivion, Fallout, FNV, and Nehrim.

2. I considered that too, honestly. People are still building Morrowind mods, and while the rate of new Oblivion mods is tapering off slightly, they are still being made. But, you and wrinklyninja bring up very good points about looking forward instead of back.

3. Heh. I see your point, but the point of an archive is simply to list mods, not provide quality assurance.


Awhile back (I don't recall exactly, but it might have been when I was still working on the archive), someone on TESNexus contacted me about partnering up and building a website with a lot of what you suggested - the archive itself, articles like my "So you want to be a..." series, stuff on using mods, etc. Sadly, he vanished and the plans fell through. There are some folks around here who are tech-savvy, so I could talk to them.


You speak wisdom.


Yeah... now that you mention it, there is a serious lack of anything resembling this.


That wouldn't be hard to do: just have a separate page for each mod, and the rest could be handled via templates or something similar (depending on where the site's hosted and what functions are available). Handling reviews would be tricky - you want to encourage people to submit them, but you'd also need to filter them somehow for usefulness. Not that it's a bad idea - far from it! - but that would need some careful thought.


Personally (and no offense to OMW) I'd just start over fresh. Figure out what you want to have (articles, archives, reviews, etc.), what you'll need to achieve that end, then start setting things up.


True enough... but we've got 11 months. I'm sure if enough people got together, we could do something in that time. I'll check around.

Two words for the first: peer review. Make reviews only editable by those who submit them (and admins and any other site staff/privileged members), then have a thumbs up system like they do on sites like Stack Overflow and Yahoo Answers. (ie. have a database or something of mods, their reviews and the ratings of the reviews, then display them in rating order) That will shunt up reviews that are good quality. Perhaps if a mod has a lot of reviews, only display the top 5 by default, and provide a link or an expansion to display the rest, thereby hiding not-so-great reviews. Also, a site bot could have a duty to act as a spam filter (removing reviews which contain cursing/swearing for instance), or reviews could be screened on submission.

I will probably end up regretting this, but I'm fairly fluent and familiar with HTML/CSS (and Javascript, but less so), PHP, SQL and the like, so while I can't guarantee any help, I suppose I could offer 'support' as it were, reviewing code if you get stuck and the like, just as another pair of eyes, should you need them. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of wikis though.

A little beyond my abilities, but a good idea. A large-scale site like you're suggesting (and I'm considering, honestly) would definitely require a team


I know wikis, and basic HTML and CSS. The various forms of wikicode are easy to pick up, but I've never had an interest in real "programming" as such. I appreciate the offer, though; right now, things are still in the early planning stages (as in, me looking at how big it's going to get and wondering if it's worth the trouble of getting help and building it ).

I was looking at UESP's Mods section; they mention that they want entries with only enough detail to be useful to most mod players - no readmes, no overly long entries with lots of useless info, i.e.:


Pretty much what you said, I think. They suggest that "only fairly complicated mods" should be listed, though what that means is up for interpretation.

So, center the site around using and troubleshooting mods, include information on large-scale/more complicated mods like overhauls, stuff like the TOQL, the comparison essays, and bg2048's thread on mod compatibility... basically, collate and organize all the scattered information that's already out there in one place, then expand on it with other features.

Hi all,

I'll be back home for about a month soon. I would be more than happy to contribute to a site that focuses on mod usage and things like that. Of course, regardless of whether or not I am a direct contributor, I will turn over all of the information I have. It kind of bothered me that my website was becoming more outdated by the day while I did not have time to do anything with Oblivion. Maybe this will be good practice for ESV! ^____^


I'll be back later.
- Tomlong75210

It's good to see you, Tomlong. :yes:

Sweet! Thanks, man. :goodjob: