i just want a ranger/outlaw guild where you steel from the rich give to the poor infiltrate towns and assassinate corrupt leaders but your guild is working for good but the world around you think you are an evil guild. it could make for a great guild storyline and would be good for archery characters and acrobats to have guild that they can truly show off their abilities and shine in

There will be no choosable alignment in the game as in dnd games,
so i think there is not much point in separating the factions as good and evil ones,
the choises you make in factions you join should affect the world around you as well as your interaction with npcs in some hand.
As in morrowind and in oblivion for example, there were no real good and bad guilds and houses, yes some were worse than others but all in there was no generalisation.

How can there be evil when there is no good?

Anyways, I don't purely black, white or grey factions, I want moral diversity within factions. I also want blue and orange morality for some (although that is probably the daedra).

As in all things these days, it is "in" to be ambiguos. No moral right, no moral wrong. However, it would be the height of arrogance to deny anyone to express their views. I enjoy Velorien's comments as much as yours. Personally, I do believe there are or is "evil", however, the worst "evil" is often "gray" because you just can't tell when it will turn upon you! I agree with Velorien that much of what we perceive as evil is based on perspective. If one is being attacked one would naturally assume the attacking party is evil. After all, what has one done to deserve this attack? Nothing as far as one knows. Hence the attackee automatically assigns the tag Evil to the attacker.

In the end, this is an unwinable debate. There is evil, there is good, there is gray and there are martians! :tes:

What is evil? Evil is what you just described, something not generally accepted or frowned upon under most peoples morality. So, there you go, there's nothing wrong with labelling a guild 'evil' if its from the standpoint of the game, you, npc's w/e.

But then the Guild may not be evil in your eyes if it dosen't affect you or isn't a moral issue with you. Evil is defined, usually, by the opinion of the masses.

No evil factions, just factions.

Read the quest line for the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild in Morrowind.

Hell, everyone, just read the quest lines for every organization in Morrowind.

An example, the Fighters Guild is split between those who are in the pockets of the dunmer crime syndicate, and those who are not. The guys who are corrupt tend to give quests that involve you shaking down businesses and people to pay up protection money, or find information about the Theives Guild. The non-corrupt guys tend to do normal jobs, like deliver booze to a mine deep in a remote area, clear a cave of dangerous pests, assist other guilds (like helping the temple clear a necromancer den), and, though some wiggling around, help the Thieves Guild.

Or the mages guild. You someone to win a bet, work with a completely inept guild master, remove the inept guild master from office or share it, kill off the Telvanni, not do down the route to kill off the Telvanni, assist someone travelling to get his notes (but it doesn't matter is said person dies), collect dues from delinquent members and kill them if they refuse, etc.

The Telvanni were very amoral, but not evil.

Redoran is high on honor, yet are corrupt and tend to act like children when dealing with other people.

Sorry for using my brain.

It's important to make the distinction. Fallout 3 being the prime example, I hated hated hated the "bad" ending where it told me I "succumbed to the vices of greed and blah blah blah." It was like the game was preaching to me. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I haven't played Fallout 3 more than once. If the game did not judge me, things would be a lot different, so it's important to anolyze things like so the distinction is made.


That is not what evil is. Evil is an extremely strong word. Evil is as strong of a word as love or hate, it's not just what is frowned upon by one's morality. In my morality, I typically frown on killing other human beings, but it is certainly not something I would label as inherently evil.

Evil should be defined by each person individually.

I would prefer that we avoid such fairly tales like "Good" or "Evil" going instead for morally grey and perhaps some grey and black morality with Skyrim. When you have a civil war occuring there should be no clear cut good guy which would make things not only boring but silly where factions have their good points but also have elements to it to make you actually think twice about siding or helping any given faction that you can work with. These choices that will help define your character while avoiding otherwise easy decision making for the most part by there being no simple obligated Good and Bad route allowing for the player to decide for him or her self what is best for you the character or those around you.

You realise that there are actual psychopaths in real life right?

But overall I agree with you. In most games you are punished in some way for choosing the neutral path, but this is the reality of where most of us actually lay. Why offer the best rewards for playing in an inherently unrealistic manner?

I don't think you have have black morality (which is just straight evil) without it's counterpart of white morality (straight good). It could easily be said that in a time of civil war, a time of suffering, you'd get your altruistic people giving their all to help the suffering masses. That would be no more silly than saying that people are out to do pure evil during a civil war and would be just as boring.

An http://i56.tinypic.com/e16qza.jpg faction? Yeah, why not. The morality of all the game's factions doesn't have to be ambiguously grey. Joining a criminal organization has nothing grey about it, but it's still interesting.

Oblivion was in no way Morally grey. The dark brotherhood was entirely Psychotic which is the closest thing to evil I can think of. And every opposition was so black you lost it in the dark. Necromancers were evil, Blackwood company was evil, Mythic Dawn was evil.

I prefer lighter gray vs darker gray, but yes some more evil factions should be in. At the very least, if the Thieves guild is in, PLEASE have them be selfish thieves or something like that. I thought they were so corny in Oblivion (usually not allowed to kill ANYONE, returning the staff they stole, etc)

Combine Morrowind with Daggerfall. Seriously, read all the quests and that jazz on UESP to get an idea of what I'm trying to say. They were fun, and didn't have stupid good, stupid evil, and Robin Hood factions, like OB (well, save for a series of side quests you can ignore in the TG in MW).

Ah, Ethics. The most pisstaking branch of philosophy. :tongue:

Anyway, I think whether a guild is evil or not should be a judgment left to the discretion of the individual player.

That being said, I think there should be more to the game's morality than just binary values. How does faction X decide what is right and wrong anyway? Are the deontological (rule and duty bound: P is wrong because the rules of Q say so), teleological (purpose-focused, ends justify the means): P achieved a good result, so it's fine), or Aretological (character or virtue focused: p was justified in doing Q because he displayed great bravery/wisdom/stamina/nice hair).

Good is Good and Evil is Evil anything that goes against the grain of good is evil. In Oblivion there was nothing that would have been considered evil or a act of evil. To many people want to be a hero and to many games based around good deeds or acts of evil or darkness.

Necromancers were unfairly kicked out of the Mages Guild, despite engaging in lawful, Empire-sanctioned activities. Traven had a hate-boner for necromancy, like Galerion did, and kicked them out with no if-ands-or-buts, which ultimately led to the collapse of the guild. The necromancers retaliated to their unjust treatment, and some went as far as to join with Mannimarco to take down the guild (even Galerion said the guild became a politcal mess, and was the reason he left it, despite being the founder).


Interesting, because Alessia Ottus, a fervently religious figure, applauds them saying how they praise Zenithar, the God of Commerce, by giving competition to the stagnating Fighters' Guild. The Fighters' Guild attempts to squash an upstart competitor, forcing a monopoly on people.


The Mythic Dawn is attempting to bring back the glory days of the Dawn Era, before Elves were unjustly stripped of their immortality and godhood by a trickster diety (who also happens to be man's chief diety). They're trapped in a mortal prison and are trying to get free. Not only that, but the entire races of Elves were conquered by a man who cheated reality to get victory, and have been living under his decendants' iron fist for centuries.

Who were the good guys, again? Well, I suppose the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild, and Empire are, if you buy into their world view. But if you don't, if you look deeper and see what's really going on, you may just get a different opinion.

You are correct, but it is also defined by the opinion of the 'masses'. You will find that peoples opinions on what is evil usually has a common theme.