Don't want to overpower too quickly : IV

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:29 pm

Hey, looking for some help.

Looking to play through Oblivion without getting godly too quickly... I would like to preserve some kind of sane progression of power.

I am using FCOM, LAME, nGCD+Progress, etc (Load order below)

I also have some quest mods installed, but they all seem to grant super enchanted daedric-class armor right away.

For example, I don't even have 50 skill in Illusion yet, and with some well applied use of Command made it through to killing the Ancient One in Glenvar, which had ludicrous equiptment on him.

From the little I have tried of Halls of the Dead, first dungeon awesome shield and gloves

etc...

So, one option is to just play through "vanilla" FCOM until I am godly anyway, and then try the quest mods, but I was hoping I could get some tips on which of my mods that I have already installed will have reasonable loot, or other high quality quest mods that have reasonably tuned loot.

Loaded mods here:

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  underdark.esm02  GTAesgaard_2.esm03  Cybiades.esm  [Version 2.0]04  Jog_X_Mod.esm05  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]06  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]07  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]08  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]09  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]0A  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]0B  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB3]0C  Armamentarium.esm  [Version 1.35]0D  Artifacts.esm0E  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]0F  NNWAEMaster.esm10  CM Partners.esm11  HorseCombatMaster.esm12  ScreenEffects.esm13  TRoN.esp14  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.3]15  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp16  DLCShiveringIsles.esp17  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]18  SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp  [Version 1.30]++  Shivering OOO.esp19  Oblivion Vwalk UOS.esp1A  DLCShiveringIsles Vwalk UOS.esp1B  DLCShiveringIsles Vwalk DG_DS UOS.esp1C  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp1D  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp1E  Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp1F  Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9]20  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9]21  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.1]22  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]23  Enhanced Water v2.0 HDMI.esp++  Symphony of Violence.esp24  MIS Low Wind.esp25  MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp26  Atmospheric Oblivion.esp27  Storms & Sound.esp28  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.1]29  WindowLightingSystem.esp2A  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.1]2B  Display Stats.esp  [Version 1.2]2C  Duke Patricks - Friendship Ring For Companion Detection.esp  [Version 1.8]2D  FormID Finder4.esp2E  Oblivion Graphics Extender Support.esp  [Version 0.3]2F  P1DmenuEscape.esp30  Scathe.esp  [Version 0.1]31  ScreenControls.esp32  Streamline 3.1.esp33  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.8]34  Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp  [Version 3.5]35  Enhanced Hotkeys.esp  [Version 2.1.1]36  DLCHorseArmor.esp37  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]38  SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp  [Version 1.11]39  DLCOrrery.esp3A  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.4]3B  DLCOrrery Vwalk.esp3C  SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp  [Version 1.11]3D  DLCSpellTomes.esp++  DLCSpellTomes - 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» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:16 pm

I had a same problem myself. I switched to TIE from FCOM because I found that FCOM was too easy, you seem to have too many mods, try modding enhanced economy to make it harder or even supreme magicka to make using spells more difficult or easier for the enemy. Try role-playing a bit that will probably make it harder. I did some of those things and yeah it works. TIE made my game very exciting so I recommend that you do the same, if you are worrying about what you will miss out like those nice looking weapons and stuff? Fear not, because I have a solution

I won't bother you with the details, well too many mods in my opinion.. good luck

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:17 pm

If you don't mind a shameless plug, you could try my "Enhanced Armory Realism" (linked in signature). Along with many other things, it weakens armor and weapon enchantments as they take damage. It makes enchanted equipment much more balanced IMHO.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:56 am

Thanks for the tips, guys. I will look into that.

The thing is, I have played through 80% of Oblivion through my multiple attempts to play the game over the years (never finished it...), and am looking for variety, hence the quest mods... but the quest mods all seem to assume you already have ultra-gear so throwing some more ultra gear at you won't imbalance the game.

While not realistic at all, I guess it would have been better if the the quest mods would have gone with the leveled loot concept, in terms of not overpowering the player too quickly.

Alas.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:37 pm

I've found that playing the game only, say, an hour a week really helps you level up more slowly!

Seriously, though, below is my "hard game" load order, and I must say, I'm leveling up pretty dang slowly - at least during the first 5 levels. The bolded mods are the ones that make the game slow to level up by both adjusting the leveling system and by making combat much more challenging and difficult. Combined with TIE's static leveled places, I do an awful lot of exploring only the first area of a dungeon and then running away. As you can see, I've also peppered the load order with mods to mitigate the difficulty - by adding window entrances, explosives, torch arrows and other things to give a weak sneaky thief a hand now and then.

Biggest single thing you can do, though, is to adjust the nGCD ini file to slow the leveling. After that, add Fizzle and Tejon's Fatigue Effects - both of which make it just damn more difficult to swagger your way through some early levels.

(And, yes, Tejon, I realize I haven't upgraded to your newest mod versions. I need a block of time to adjust again, and I believe I'll wait a few weeks until FCOM is updated. Then, I'll update both of my active load orders in one session. Thank you, mTES4!)

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  You Are Here.esm02  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]03  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.72]04  Qarls_Harvest.esm05  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]06  SoS Library.esm07  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]08  Toaster Says Share v3.esm09  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.3]0A  DLCShiveringIsles.esp0B  Atmospheric Loading Screens - Random Quotes.esp0C  Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp0D  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.1]0E  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]++  Symphony of Violence.esp0F  Echo_ChapelChant.esp10  MIS.esp11  MIS Low Wind.esp12  MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp13  Distant Chapel Bells.esp14  Rainbows.esp[b]15  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.1]16  AmbientDungeons.esp  [Version 1.3][/b]17  Ayleid Loot EXtension.esp++  Item interchange - Extraction.esp  [Version 0.78]18  Q - More and Moldy Ingredients v1.1.esp19  Qarls_Harvest.esp1A  Willful Resistance.esp  [Version 4.0]1B  Wyverex - Deployable Traps.esp1C  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.0.2][b]1D  PTRoamingNPCs.esp[/b]1E  Damage Text v2.esp1F  Display Stats.esp  [Version 1.3.1]20  DropLitTorchOBSE.esp  [Version 2.4]21  Enhanced Seasons.esp  [Version 1.3]22  Lock Bash Omega.esp  [Version 1.5]23  Quest Log Manager.esp  [Version 1.3.2]24  Scathe.esp  [Version 0.1]25  skycaptains NPCFF.esp26  Vacuity.esp  [Version 0.2]27  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.8]28  Map Marker Overhaul - 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» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:23 pm

I also have some quest mods installed, but they all seem to grant super enchanted daedric-class armor right away.

For example, I don't even have 50 skill in Illusion yet, and with some well applied use of Command made it through to killing the Ancient One in Glenvar, which had ludicrous equiptment on him.

From the little I have tried of Halls of the Dead, first dungeon awesome shield and gloves

etc...

So, one option is to just play through "vanilla" FCOM until I am godly anyway, and then try the quest mods, but I was hoping I could get some tips on which of my mods that I have already installed will have reasonable loot, or other high quality quest mods that have reasonably tuned loot.

What you can do is:

1. Focus on quest mods that have reasonable risk vs. reward systems, i.e. the challenge should be equal to the reward. I'm not much help on several of the ones you're using as I haven't tried them, but painkiller_rider's quest mods are good regarding this IMO as is Ivellon and Mighty Umbra, for example. Adonnay's Elven and Classical weapons aren't proper quest mods but rather nicely balanced as well - you'll find the best weapons in hard dungeons, the guardians governing some of them are quite tough, plus you can customize the chance of critical hits etc.

2. Just don't use the equipment that you find overpowered. Basically, I think that that you have to set your own rules for a lot of things when playing Oblivion to avoid cheap tactics etc.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:38 am

Try Windfall. It's a large quest mod, but it doesn't give you any overpowered tangible rewards except gold (that I recall). It's long and involved enough to keep you busy for a long time, and can be started right out of the sewers.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:25 am

Well I took that advice of playing right out of character generation and it has been tough.

So I agree that with vanilla and possibly OOO it would be easy to do as an early character, but with TIE-WAC and many mods that effect magic, combat, and stealth it has been a struggle. But again that is mostly outside the city gates when you do a dungeon dive. Where the leveled lists come into play. The city quests are great and just the right level of challenge for a level 1-6 character - but using overhauls and other mods - you feel like your diving into a level 20 dungeon.

I had to cheat a few times even.

I think with FCOM or TIE combined with as much inherent loot as Oblivion has (then add in loot enhancing mods like arma and jello) you will be collecting weapons from now on. like Borderlands - which weapon to keep. The answer most come up with is that they like new content so they go for mods that make the game hard.

My other install a level 26 paladin who just completed the main quest with FCOM+EDI+240 other mods just went to memorial cave and got his rear handed to him many times - thanks to Duke Patrick's Nosferatu vampires and Realistic Sneak mod ... those guys were like amped up, invisible, super ninjas on crack who constantly angled to strike me from behind bobbing and weaving like mad. I had a one hitter sword called mercy but the question was not whether it was overpowered to have a one hit sword, but whether I could even land a hit. With Duke's Combat Geometry mod getting hit from behind is deadly (like 3x or so). Alos I had let there be darkness and ampols cave textures and so even night eye was not enough to really see well. This reduced my well practiced combat tactics down to swinging madly in a corridor.

My favorite quote on game balance comes from the author of the mod http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14974 for F3:

"Weapons balance can best be defined as half the people whining about weak-ass guns and the other half muttering God Weapon."

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:29 pm

Well I took that advice of playing right out of character generation and it has been tough.

So I agree that with vanilla and possibly OOO it would be easy to do as an early character, but with TIE-WAC and many mods that effect magic, combat, and stealth it has been a struggle. But again that is mostly outside the city gates when you do a dungeon dive. Where the leveled lists come into play. The city quests are great and just the right level of challenge for a level 1-6 character - but using overhauls and other mods - you feel like your diving into a level 20 dungeon.

This is a good point! I run a pretty vanilla game, so I have very little gauge for how difficult anything is with an overhaul. :shrug:

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:13 pm

Thanks for the tips, guys. I will look into that.

The thing is, I have played through 80% of Oblivion through my multiple attempts to play the game over the years (never finished it...), and am looking for variety, hence the quest mods... but the quest mods all seem to assume you already have ultra-gear so throwing some more ultra gear at you won't imbalance the game.

While not realistic at all, I guess it would have been better if the the quest mods would have gone with the leveled loot concept, in terms of not overpowering the player too quickly.

Alas.

Hold on there matey this ain't World of Warcraft, here gear doesn't change everything, let me lay it down for you. You are supposed to use the surroundings and other things to your advantage ( scrolls, potions, traps, high ground,...) You don't need ultra gear, you need experience and freedom of mind, I try to use everything. However with a mage you need to save on cash for spells, so you don't really need potions. My magicka regeneration while fighting is awfully slow (modded using SM) , money is hard to keep or collect ( TIE + EE ), sneaky characters are the best for TIE however I have tried both combat and magic types of characters in TIE. Just think about it if you are using FCOM then I guess it should be a bit harder to play as a sneaky type, there are usually crowds of enemies in dungeons and even outside, like I said try role-playing a bit put some restrictions on yourself.

My other install a level 26 paladin who just completed the main quest with FCOM+EDI+240 other mods just went to memorial cave and got his rear handed to him many times - thanks to Duke Patrick's Nosferatu vampires and Realistic Sneak mod ... those guys were like amped up, invisible, super ninjas on crack who constantly angled to strike me from behind bobbing and weaving like mad. I had a one hitter sword called mercy but the question was not whether it was overpowered to have a one hit sword, but whether I could even land a hit. With Duke's Combat Geometry mod getting hit from behind is deadly (like 3x or so). Alos I had let there be darkness and ampols cave textures and so even night eye was not enough to really see well. This reduced my well practiced combat tactics down to swinging madly in a corridor.

I really like the sound of that my friend, sounds really hard and dangerous, can you send me a message or something about which mods do you think have great effect like that ( its not like you haven't noted some )
I have a vampire character, who goes by himself and thats the reason he is a vampire however he is also a Breton which makes him bad for combat and good for magic however i focused my character on combat/stealth and I sneak around and take stuff, I even fight. Sneaking around dungeons is do able with Aylied Steps and its hard to get to the point of using those steps in the first place so.. you gotta risk it a bit. Trolls are my worst enemies but not against mages, but still I really am scared of trolls in oblivion...

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:02 pm

As Dark Hound mentions, you could try to change Enhanced Economy settings (since you're already using it) to make it harder to find good loot. Enhanced Economy does a lot of things, but one of its first features was the Item Removal feature, where it reduces the amount of enchanted loot found. I use FCOM too, and found that with FCOM there are way too much enchanted loot to be found. Personally, I have the item removal settings somewhere between 10 (rings) and 30 (weapons/armor), which means that I only get 10-30% of this high-gear loot. That way, getting good enchanted loot actually becomes something of an event and not something you get way too much of.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:18 pm

Since you're running nGCD and looking for a challenge, try Got No Class (in the nGCD options). It lets you keep the character generation class, which has no class skills or specialization -- meaning you're short 175 skill points at level 1, and with nGCD, your attributes are extremely low as well. As of v2.0, nGCD needs no special configuration to work with it. I recommend tweaking Progress, setting the three fSkillUse???Mult values all to 1.0, just so you're not taking the minor skill advancement penalty -- but the only effect if you don't is an extra 25% slowdown.

Gothemasticator mentioned couple of my other difficulty-enhancing mods: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25616 gives a chance of failure when casting spells, and http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20850 (TFE) includes a hunger/fatigue module which is explicitly designed as a game mechanic (to make time valuable) rather than a simulation -- the implementation is very simple and intuitive. I just released http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1153762-relz-skill-decay/ which might also interest you.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:25 pm

You could look into http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35675 too. This little plugin makes it harder too reach 100% of a magic effect like magic resist and similar. This way you won`t be able to get immunity so fast. And don`t forget to check out http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32651, if it wasn`t already mentioned before.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:08 pm

Wow. Lots of interesting ideas in here...

Will look at TIE, TFE and a few others.

Maybe I am actually suffering from another problem ...I am trying to play a Warrior-Mage with very little thieving. I am currently at 12th level. My prime skills are Blade , Light Armor, Marksmanship, Alteration. Illusion, Restoration, Mysticism.

Blade is at ~55, all magic skills are in the early 40s, high 30s, Marksmanship is at 31.

I stayed away from destruction because it always made the game too easy for me in the past, likewise with Conjuration - it both allowed me to bring in killer monsters and I would sit and watch them fight the baddies as well as creating a soul gem factory.

What I am finding, however, is a bit frustrating - either I just chew monsters up (rarely, actually) or they just one-shot me. Very little tactical back and forth. I can't remember what vanilla oblivion was like, it has been years and years and years, but I don't think it was like that.

But last night, for example, I walk into the first dungeon in Halls of the Dead. There is a level 10 Vampire Crusader armed with a Battlestaff of shocking (damage is like 20 from the weapon and another 10 for shock). I saved before the fight and replayed it a bunch of times. only once did it happen that his first attack brought be down to 80% health (and the second killed me) ... all the other times he one-shotted me.

I am reasonably well armed, I think - Kvatch Curaiss from Kvatch Main Quest, and all the rest mithril armor with various enchant,s plus a 15% shield spell up, plus a 15% shock shield up. And the I have some 2-handed sick Ayelid weapon that I stole from the fighter's guild.

Have something like 150 HP, and I think an AC of like 30 or 40 with shields up.

So, my other tactic is to just Command these guys (I have a Command Humanoid on touch level 25 for 15 seconds), but then its almost like my Conjuration days - someone else is fighting for me.

Marksmanship seems like it was a mistake. I am using FCOM Archery beta (not using Duke Patrick's, although that looks interesting) ... I rarely get to use it in a dungeon, since when I turn the corner, the mobs already see me. It seems like Marksmanship will only be viable with better sneaking.

But melee fighting isn't viable when you can't take 3 hits from a same leveled critter....

On the flip side, if what it takes to be able to stand toe to toe is to 'cheat' by sneaking in to some unbalanced mod dungeon, Commanding everything in there and walking out with Glass armor enchanted out the wazoo, that is a problem as well.

What mods should I be removing/adding to make melee combat challenging and satisfying? I have Deadly Reflexes, which is amsuing, but doesnt seem to be game changing.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:09 am

A weapon that's supposed to be doing 30 damage is instead doing 150? It kind of sounds like you moved the difficulty slider all the way up...

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:34 pm

A weapon that's supposed to be doing 30 damage is instead doing 150? It kind of sounds like you moved the difficulty slider all the way up...

Sounds to me like the guy has good skill over the weapon, he probably used a power attack which multiplies the damage, check your resistances against lightning
I get killed all the time with one blow or more. I find that to be normal hahaha however command spells with SM should be much more underpowered however your game isn't really made for SM, I think you might wanna try and restrict command levels are certain levels. For example in TIE guards mostly have very high levels so that you cant use those kinds of spells on them, however you can still use some of those on other NPC's. Necromancers in TIE are above level 20 so using spells on them probably won't have a effect. Bandits are 10+.. well it doesnt matter i just want to say that leveled NPC's are much better for your kind of game

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:45 pm

I used the console to show me that he had 78 strength and 44 blunt skill. I think the one-shot attacks were power attacks, with according to the OOO documentation has a 3x multiplier, so 20 for the weapon, 10 for the shock effect x3 is 90... also not sure why it is wiping me out.

Using a mod that slowly increments the difficultly, at right now it is set at 63%

As for leveled lists... not using TIE, but OOO/FCOM should be automatically increasing the difficulty of everyone, I would have thought, but Hearts of the Dead is a mod, so it may not have scaling mobs.

Regardless, if power attacks can one-shot me, that is pretty annoying. I certaintly don't seem to be able to one-shot things my level.. using Damage Text, I seem to be doing 25 points of damage on a normal swing, 67 or so on a power attack, and sine I am using the scouting mod, it seems like most of the baddies my level have about 180 - 200 HP, so no one-shotting going on for me...

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:46 pm

I used the console to show me that he had 78 strength and 44 blunt skill. I think the one-shot attacks were power attacks, with according to the OOO documentation has a 3x multiplier, so 20 for the weapon, 10 for the shock effect x3 is 90... also not sure why it is wiping me out.

Using a mod that slowly increments the difficultly, at right now it is set at 63%

As for leveled lists... not using TIE, but OOO/FCOM should be automatically increasing the difficulty of everyone, I would have thought, but Hearts of the Dead is a mod, so it may not have scaling mobs.

Regardless, if power attacks can one-shot me, that is pretty annoying. I certaintly don't seem to be able to one-shot things my level.. using Damage Text, I seem to be doing 25 points of damage on a normal swing, 67 or so on a power attack, and sine I am using the scouting mod, it seems like most of the baddies my level have about 180 - 200 HP, so no one-shotting going on for me...

I don't know about you but with cetrain characters I could do it, not to mention that I played with TIE which made that even more difficult
You can't one-shot them because you simply aren't strong enough it doesnt matter which level you are or if they are the same level as you are...
Just get over it, you can one shot stuff with a wood elf who has a bow and a few more things up his sleeve

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:21 pm

I don't know about you but with cetrain characters I could do it, not to mention that I played with TIE which made that even more difficult
You can't one-shot them because you simply aren't strong enough it doesnt matter which level you are or if they are the same level as you are...
Just get over it, you can one shot stuff with a wood elf who has a bow and a few more things up his sleeve

I actually have no desire to kill anything in a single blow... I just want the playing field to be fairly even, well sort of. If I can't kill anything in a single blow (around my level), then they shouldn't be able to do that to me either.

Especially as there will always be like 3 of them and one of me....

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:54 pm

@MichiK

if I was you, I'd get rid of ALL gameplay changing mods and play straight vanilla for a couple of levels again. You say you can't remember how that felt. Well then give it a refresher then.

This will do 2 things for your: First, you get a pretty good idea what you are actually missing. Secondly, it will get you out of that - what appears to me - unproductive cycle of adding mods that edit/ change the effect of other mods...

Having said that, having 150 HP and getting wiped out in one shot is ridiculous and certainly not what FCOM is about. To each his own, but such a proposition is not what I would consider "fun", unless you are a reload junkie. And if you have to resort to cheating (occasionally I do that myself) - well that is like stabbing your modded game in the back, also not what was the idea in the first place... so I don't know...