I am currently level 21 and the world is getting a little too easy (not in some of the dungeons though). I am running FCOM.

I am looking for input on the best mix of content and challenge. I already see alot of magical items (armor and weapons) and still have a bit of work with bandits and such. I could stop leveling now (I use Wrye leveling) and continue the game (still 80% left to explore).

A couple more levels would not hurt as I would also like to raise some magical skills to start using that but I do not want the game to become to easy. I could use the difficulty slider I guess but wonder if anyone has experience as to what level they feel is the line before the game is not challenging any more.

Not sure what advice to give. I also find that the game gets too easy overall once you hit c. Lvl 20, with some exceptions. And my "solution" has always been to retire the char when the game isn't challenging anymore. The first OOO/FCOM chars lasted to their mid 30's. Now I'm quite bored with my current Lvl 21 char. My other solution is to postpone this as much as possible by slowing down the level rate with Progress. With x5 slower level rate my Lvl 21 char has 220 game hours.

Another thing you can do is to up the difficulty slider incrementally while leveling up, say starting at 50 difficulty and upping this so you're at 70 at Lvl 20, for example. I think there's a mod doing this automatically.

EDIT: Here it is - http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=28589.

I guess that's more or less the same for everyone. Problem is that you can max out (or nearly max out) the critical skills by the time you reach level 20-25. A warrior will have strength, endurance, blade and heavy armor ~80-100, a destruction mage will have willpower, intelligence and destruction ~80-100. And both will have great equipment, most of it will be equal to ebony with good enchantments. There aren't many enemies in the game who can cope with that. I think the most interesting levels are level 5-20. Before level 5 my characters are so weak that I'm running away or reloading all the time, after level 20-25 I rarely meet enemies who are dangerous. Personally I have set up Oblivion XP so I can get to level 5 pretty fast, but reaching level 20 takes a very long time. The game simply stops being fun at level 25. Running around for one hour without meeting a single dangerous enemy is boring.

The difficulty increaser might help, but it's not my cup of tea. I don't like how increased difficulty makes battles last longer and I also don't like using the difficulty slider at all. If a troll is dangerous at level 3 and not so dangerous at level 10 then I don't want it to be dangerous again suddenly. You could as well use the vanilla leveling system in that case where everything stays dangerous no matter what level you are.

My advice would be to start a new character and use a leveling mod that allows you to adjust the rate at which you level. Whether it's Oblivion XP or nGCD/Progress or whatever you prefer.

I agree. Not using it myself for the above reasons - and I never touch the difficulty slider either.

Yes, I'd also recommend nGCD or Realistic Leveling (can't speak of Oblivion XP as I've hardly used it). Both "nerfs" the char somewhat compared to vanilla and you also lose direct control over attribute raise.

I don't run FCOM (or any overhaul mods) and I use the vanilla leveling system, so. . . your mileage may vary quite a bit.

I cap my character at level 20 (just by picking some major skills to never use). This helps keep her foes from becoming hitpoint pools and gobbling up too many arrows.

Then I gimp her so she is a real glass cannon:
Base endurance and strength of 30 forever.
She won't touch melee, h2h or staves - just a bow and some magic.
She dresses for fashion only, and therefore often has an armor rating of, like. . . 6. She is perfectly happy to clear an Oblivion plane in the skimpy Arena raiment because it is so hot in there for example.

She is very good with her bow and illusion though. So, I get my desired result. By ignoring some attributes and skills, it really helps focus the character (it also makes improving desired attributes much easier). She can kill quite elegantly if she is careful, but almost any foe represents a real threat if she gets surprised, jumped or caught off guard. We keep the diff slider in the middle.

Do you think the MMM Reavers are not tough enough?
What about the FCOM Entropic Order?
If the Reavers are not tough enough, make them tougher and create a new enemy inbetween those two mentioned above? I could do it if you think that will help make more people play longer than lvl 20.

Imo the problem is not that there are no dangerous enemies. The problem is that 98% of the enemies you meet are weak if you are level ~25. Which is a good thing since usually you don't want a scaled world if you use an overhaul. Of course there are Frost Giants, special boss NPCs with high level equipment, Ogre Champions and some others. But if you run around for an hour you'll maybe find one of them (in my game at least). Adding another enemy type won't help with that, you'd need to rescale the whole system to make playing fun with a level 25 character.

Personally I'm fine with that limit anyway - you just have to make sure that leveling up takes longer. If level 25 is the limit and if it takes 200 hours to get that far then I'm ok with that. And you can even play with a character like that for a while till you hit level 30 - maybe not very challenging, but at some point you have to reap the fruit of your labor and play the coolest hero of Tamriel. Who says you need to be level 50 when the game ends?

As someone pointed out in another thread, there's raising skills (which makes you more powerful) and raising levels (which makes the mobs more powerful), and enjoying the game is a matter of balance between the two. If you raise levels faster than skills (the new player syndrome), you get killed a lot. If you raise skills much faster than levels after you learn the game, you get bored a lot.

You could play a satisfying game without ever raising your level, but some quests are locked out if you do that.

You need to find a strategy or mod that gets the balance back. Either limit your skills to match your level, or add mods that adjust the way the balance works. The vanilla game caps out the enemies around the 20's so that's probably where your character should cap.

I'm really liking the triad nGCD - Progress - Skill Decay. Specially this last one as it forces you to specialize your character. If well balanced you should be able to get stuck around certain level of your taste without weird tricks (*if you want), and also in conjunction with nGCD it tends to lower the attributes related to less used skills. Spend a week picking up flowers and wandering around and you'll level down... it's amazing :celebration: IMO the problem with vanilla leveling system is not that you can max out your specialization, I find that's quite well deserved at lvl 20-25, but rather that you can do so and then also master the other two specializations, that's what I feel it's wrong. In other words, I'm ok if my high level assasin is lethal when undetected, but not when he's able to rush through an oblivion plane like a juggernaut.

Another option would be considering some mod that make magic loot less powerful or simply selling out all your equipment with constant effects, specially those shield, resistance and reflect effects. I bet that'd be quite a change. Also mods that make combat deadlier may provide some more fun, as even if you're able to get rid of enemies with just a few blows, it will be also easier for them to kill you if get by surprise. Kuertee's Skill and Attribute Based Damage is very simple and effective. It may be a bit hard at low levels when you get staggered quite often even when succesfully blocking but at mid-high levels it's real fun

Thanks for the replies. However, my problem is not leveling as I use Wrye Leveling. This allows me to level when I want (I get 10 attribute points and 15 skill points to distribute as I please) any time I level. There is nor increase in skill or attribute through use so I am in complete control.

Based on the answers, I would probably not want to go above level 25. I do not think there is too much content I would miss by staying at 25 to play the game.

Another aspect that I am looking to change is the weight of potions. Not much challenge at any level if I can carry 50 potions of healing and 50 potions of damage any time I go to clear a dungeon. ROM weighed all potions at 1 so that was nice but can't use that mod in my game. Wry bash has a reweigh potions but I think it only works on potions I have and not ones I make.

Feeling a bit self-sentric, but I'd mention a couple of my less-known mods. http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26409 was made to make the game interesting and challenging at higher levels too. The mod completely change the player's health calculation. With this mod, the player's health is a factor of his level, and you set a start health, a health increase per level and a maximum health. By keeping the health increase per level and/or maximum health pretty low, you end up with a player that may be very strong at higher levels, but without the godlike amount of health, making fights still being dangerous. Another use for the mod is that it makes it easier to balance the game since player characters who don't work on their Endurance skills still get the same health.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25714 is the mod for controlling potion weights. By default it makes all player-made potions weigh 0.2, but you can set the weight to anything you want in the ini. Wry Bash has two reweigh potion options, one for all potions you find/buy, and one for potions you make - but the latter only works for potion types you have already made. As soon as your alchemy level increases or you change alchemy equipment, the potions will be slightly different, and you have to redo WB's reweigh potion function for that savegame, etc. Lightweight Potions works dynamically during your game, so it is just to install and forget.

Thanks TNO. I will try the potion weight mod. Even at lower health, having the ability to stock 100 potions makes it a bit unbalancing. With a 400 encumbtance limit and only using 100 for eqipment, you can see how that breaks the game. Only option is self control but after dying 10 times in a dungeon you say "I'll show you" and stock the potions.

Wonder if it is possible to make a mod that limits number of potion you can practically carry. But then you have to extend it further that you can't carry 14 sets of armor either, or 12 weapons. I guess it is just the way games are. But imagine this possibility:

Encumbrance can stay as is, maxing at 500.
All this does it make easier to wear heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon.

Now we make a mod that adds a 'bulk' value to each item.
We restrict a character to only be able to:
carry/equip one set of armor
Maximum two bows, maximum 2 swords/hammers/axes/staffs and a dagger.
Maximum 15 potion/drink bottles
Maximum 5 torches
Maximum 20 lockpics
Maximum 1 repair hammer (which should weigh 5lbs and never break - how many hammers you know break?)
Some sort of maximum based on bulk as to amount of loot (gold, rings, amulets, gems)
Some maximum to number of ingredients based on bulk
Only mortar and pestle

Makes having a horse and saddle bags essential but even then you would be limited as to how much you can pack on one trip.

Nice thing about being higher level and not needing money is you can force yourself to play this way, but a mod would make it easier.

Anyone think this is possible?

Not what you're looking for exactly, but have you tried Realistic Fatigue? It makes encumbrance and fatigue actually matter.

I have done the realistic route and enjoyed it. But in this case I find the issue not being how much you can carry but WHAT you can carry, hence the bulk attribute I was thinking about. But that seems unlikely to be something in any game. It would be the ultimate in realism. No more carrying 10 suits of armor, 4 swords, 2 bows, an axe, 100 lockpicks, 10 repair hammers, and 50 torches, even if I have the strength do do it

Have to say that I prefer Realistic Fatigue over amount limits. It's a global system that forces the player to be picky on what he/she carries, but I think that a char that just has a robe and no weapons should be able to carry plentiful of potions, for instance. With RF you can take that extra heavy sword if you like - but it will affect you a bit constantly. And it all quickly adds up. But then I've never liked enforced limits - always feels a bit paternalistic IMO. I'm not into "realism" in itself btw, but RF is simply a must have for me.

To be fair, there's a bulk aspect built into the existing system. There's no such thing as an 30-pound sledge that anyone can actually use, and that's the lightest warhammer, and IIRC Daggerfall explicitly named the weight unit as kilograms so it might actually be more than twice that. The only sane explanation is that part of that weight is "unwieldiness." I agree that it's rather terribly done, but at least they tried.

I'm having this issue also, my character I'm currently playing is level 23 with 140 speed 100 athletics/markman/acrobatics. I get hit maybe 1-3 times every ten battles or so. I feel super over powered, I can jump clear over an enemy while swiss cheesing them with my bow. The only way to make it some what challenging is to limit my gear and enchantments, For example: Using chainmail instead of glass and only enchanting 2 or 3 pieces of equipment.

Exactly, a mod that could realistically limit these things. I figure to stop leveling now and play the game till I get boared and then start something else. For me, the key to controlling the game is to control the leveling which I do with Wrye Leveling. I left my endurance at 100 but stopped my strength at 80, and speed at 60. Agility at 80.

I stopped my blade marksman sneak at 75. Then just adjust my other stats, none over 50, when I choose to level.

I do miss out on content I guess but I find 50% magic items now anyway and have enough money that I can just loot jewelry to stay financed. I try to limit the potions I carry also.