I've re-writ the first part of the thread. I hope this will stop the Oblivion vs Morrowind stuff that was never supposed to be there in the first place, and hope it better clarifies what I was attempting to say.

Well, you did certainly make it sound like that. You basically said
"This is amessage to the devs. Oblivion was a flop. It was worse than Morrowind in every way. You should look to Morrowind when designing Skrim."

Yeah, you said "Morrowind is better than Oblivion, thats why you should work really hard on Skyrim"

I'm sorry you cannot grasp the paragraphs, that clearly state exactly what it is I think they should focus on. You cannot sum this post up that easy if you grasp everything i'm saying in it.

fix'd that for you B)

But...but...but...

Morrowind didn't feel real to me. There were giant mushrooms growing along the side of the road! There were people living on giant mushrooms! Some people didn't even bother to visit their homes. It didn't feel real to me. If it did to you, great. I think that's bloody wonderful.

But Oblivion felt so much more alive to me. People had jobs, they moved around. I can picture towns in Cyroidiil still going about its business even if I wasn't there...but when I think of towns in Morrowind all I see are most if not all npc's standing their waiting for the character to show up.

Its all opinion. Every little itty bitty bit of it. Everything about games is opinion. Its like art. Anyone and their grandma could tell that a picture I try to make is not very good...but if I could scuplt with the best of them...then its all opinion. There's a reason people buy COD games. There's a reason why people hate rpg's with a pasion. Its cause games are a work of art, and there simply is no way to tell what art is better than other art. If its good enough to get sold, then its a good game. Anything past that is opinion.

I hate Dragonball GT. Its actually the general consensus that it svcked. But I've seen people defending GT. Dragon Ball Evolution...don't even start with me. Really...don't start with me. But I've seen people who liked it... Not even sure how it was possible, but i saw it. Its all opinions.

unfortunatly as I'm sure you can agree, just trusting that they know what their doing doesnt work well. As there are many developers who mess up games or bring out a rediculous patch that everyone hates and ultimately ruins the game.

Though yes I have been following the news of Skyrim and yes I do believe they will do everything I've said and more. I just hope beyond hope its all its cracked up to be, as i've been sadly let down again and again in the past 5 years by game companies claiming 1 thing only to get a half-A'd attempt at best done in what they said they would give. But like I said in my post I trust Bethesda and think they can truly make this work. Otherwise I would not waste my time on here.

Stop being so rude, people. The amount of hate on this forum never ceases to disappoint.

People's opinions will differ, and many times, you cannot change someones opinion. So stop trying so damn hard, and cease the arguing. Have a friendly debate, not the equivalent of a backyard rap battle.

Well, no, I would still sum it up the same way after reading the thread 5-6 times.

Don't see why this thread exists. I'm sure Bethesda has learned from their mistakes.

Because a mod hasnt seen it yet.

I don't think suggesting the thing that they already at least believe they are doing when it is something that requires attention from the very start and there are only 8 months til release, and expecting them to take the time out to read your single perspective and accept everything you say as gospel whilst you are also insulting a portion of their work in a personal address is going to work too well either, to be honest.

All the Elder Scrolls games are connected. You cannot simply regard them all as individual entities. They don't completely "start from scratch" when making each Elder Scrolls installment, else Elder Scrolls "A" would be a game about catapulting birds into structures, Elder Scrolls "B" would be a Mario-like sidescroller, and Elder Scrolls "C" would be a Tetris knockoff. They are all connected, no matter how you view it. It doesn't make sense to me why they threw away so much of what was good in Morrowind. Those things weren't "superfluous". I appreciated things like crossbows, throwing stars/knives, SPEARS, short blade skill, political houses, vampire clans, an intriguing plot, the alien atmosphere... the list goes on. All of that was great in Morrowind, and if "beginning anew" for each Elder Scrolls means needlessly throwing away those great things, then maybe there's a better way.

I never wanted a Morrowind 2. When I saw the first few screens of Oblivion did I say "EEW that doesn't look like Morrowind, this game is going to svck" ? Absolutely not. I looked forward to Oblivion with all my heart, and I didn't expect it to be just "Morrowind 2". I thought Oblivion would build upon what Morrowind did, and be even better. But Oblivion let me down, as I'm sure it did many Morrowind fans. The problem with Oblivion was that, for an Elder Scrolls game, it just wasn't that that great of a game. I mean it was very good, and I played it quite a bit, but... if Bethesda was capable of making a game of Morrowind-like quality the first time around, could they not do it again? Why didn't they? Oblivion was just lacking in substance somehow. Yes there were many graphical improvements, and combat improvements, but I think almost all pre-Oblivion ES fans will agree: Oblivion seemed watered down after Morrowind.

What I'm trying to say is this: When making new Elder Scrolls games Bethesda shouldn't make a carbon copy re-skinned version of their previous game, nor should they throw away everything good from the previous game and begin completely anew. They should strive for a balance, keeping all that was good from the previous game, while improving, expanding and revitalizing those properties in the new game, rather than diminishing them.

I agree with you, OP.

I know that feel bro. I know that feel

I like you allready...

But I'm devided even if I kind of agree with you. I spent 1000+ hours with Oblivion and had grat fun every second, so I feel kind of (self-)insulted at the same time.
Oblivion wasn't a 'flop'. It had (and have) it's own qualities.

(said by the worlds greatest Morrowindfan)

Yes, they certainly should take certain elements from past games, and improve them, so long as they fit into what they're aiming for, but also add a lot of new stuff. Myself, I do not like crossbows as weapons for an RPG, since they are very not-skill-based, they're like medievalguns. Spears could be good if implemented well, it's a shame we won't see them. For things like the short blade skill, I do think that is now superfluous, because the new perks system can use perks for shorter blade specialisation while not having to use an entire skill for it. That is a new aspect that actually incorporates an old aspect. There are always aspects to draw upon from previous works, but that should not get in the way too much of the new ideas brought to the table.

I disagree Oblivion had people moving around which made the game feel more alive. Although I did like the wierdness of Morrowind.

Your personal weapon preferences aside, you're right about sometimes having to alter old things to make room for the new. BUT (there's one they fear) when the new additions don't make of for what was lost, obviously something was done wrong. Oblivion got rid of many things from Morrowind, which might have been forgiven had Oblivion brought enough good new content to the table. But that didn't happen. There was nothing new, nothing grand enough on Oblivion that made me say "you know what, maybe spears weren't all that essential after all", or better yet completely made me forget about missing all those old things.

You all can prefer one game over the other, but it is an undisputed fact that Morrowind had more substance. Look at the amount of NPC dialogue in Morrowind vs that of Oblivion (which was heavily limited due to voice). Look at the amount of quests in Morrowind vs Oblivion. Look at Morrowind's 13 joinable factions vs Oblivion's 5. It all points in the same direction. Like I said you can prefer whatever game you wish, but I just wanted to point that out.

I will agree that Oblivion did seem a bit watered down but I still thought it was better then morrowind.

That's fine, but I'll just point out that, of those who have played both games, you are the minority.

Yeah I probably am. Still we can't ignore the great improvements Oblivion made. Also most of what was taken out of Morrowind is personal preference (Like levitation).

I think out of the majority of TES fans, it is a minority that even pits them against each other. They were all amazing games. I have no interest in comparing them. Sorry that some people missed out on the magic that was Oblivion simply because it didnt remind them of Morrowind.

This has turned (inevitably) into a comparison of ther two prior games. There are plenty of discussions on that in the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/forum/26-general-discussion/