Skyrim needs characters with "greyer", deeper, more dynamic, more realistic, more numerous, and more meaningful motivations... like Morrowind kinda had, but even deeper. SOIAF FTW!

Well, we haven't played the game yet, so I can't really say if it needs "grayer" characters.

Epix tails lol. kinda wondering how big it takes to be epic. (just kidding you, I know it's tale you meant)

Quite honestly, I don't really mind, As long as there are LONG stories, which can't be summarized as "the world was in danger, and I saved it"

And BTW what the hell is "SOIAF"?

I really don't think anyone wants obvious good vs evil type storytelling, that is cliche even when done with a somewhat original concept. Grey fleshes out characters, the world, and breathes life into what you're doing. I voted yes.

I do generally favor various shades of grey over stark black and white, so that's how I voted. I always hated the Fable approach: An abandoned orphanage. Do you reopen it, or make it a brothel instead?

Well gosh, I wonder which is good and which is evil.

I hate to do nothing but compare to other games, but I find Mass Effect had the ideal approach. The moral scale wasn't such a clear-cut "good and evil," but instead you chose between ruthless persuit of your goals and working with others to achieve them, "Renegade" and "Paragon" respectively. One could argue the good and bad points of either path, but neither of them is white-washed good or inconsolabley evil. To reference another Bioware game, Dragon Age had a similar approach, the main difference being a complete lack of a visual representation of your moral orientation.

Wow, even I want to punch myself in the face for my choice of words there. Basically, it didn't show you the moral compass and you wouldn't grow horns or sprout a halo based on your choices. Instead those decisions affected the game's environment and story, so it was always clear to you which path you were on without breaking the immersion by pulling up your character menu or anything ridiculous like the aforementiond horns and halo. Considering what we've heard about the effort to remove that immersion-breaking menu screen this seems a likely direction for the game, and one I would applaud.

Of course, let's be honest, I'll buy the game regardless

Gray has become the cliche to me; the classic good versus evil is hardly touched anymore because everyone wants their stories to be "edgy, dark, etc." A good epic good versus evil can still be intelligent and complex, as can a more gray story. I prefer the pallete; give me an overarching black and white (alduin versus the world) AND some gray overlay (the civil war). Having it both ways at the same time makes for a much much, grander story.

In fact, A Song of Ice and Fire is exactly like this. You have all the gray from the war of kings and Daenarys crossing the sea, but you have the black and white of OMGWTFBBQicedemons invading past the wall to destroy the Seven Kingdoms. So yeah, sure, gray is good, but don't forget the morality tales too plzkthnx

Well, I do like a bit of grey, but I don't want it to become Fallout (yep, sorry for comparing the two games).
Sure, the occassional decision you have to make, and the little bit of blur between good and evil where you don't quite know which is which, but not much.

I agree, thanks to games like fable, the classic epic of good vs evil has become stigmatized in storytelling as unrealistic and being without depth. Skyrim should definitely be a world where most people would be morally gray, but there should still be some recognizable good people (or at least people with good intentions) as well as some evil folks who make trouble.

If the entire world feels morally grey with no discernible good or bad but all self-interested gluttons, I would end up feeling annoyed and disgusted with the world if I'm playing a mostly good or mostly evil character. I know it's more realistic because our world is mostly morally grey with far less completely good or evil people, but this shouldn't be exactly like our world or it ceases to be a fantasy RPG.

If you want some grey, check out the book in my sig .

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with said auther.

Anywho, I'd love a bit of gray thrown in there.

Tbh I think the whole grey character thing is becoming a bit cliche'...

There will be plenty of grey. The Thieves guild pretty much embodies it, for example. We also know the last Emperor had his seedy side. TES doesn't try to make paladin characters and stuff I think it just doesn't bother to go into any real detail with its characters... So you never know if good guys like Jauffre have a bad side.

You got that right. So much clamoring for "gray" ... "more gray, more better" but that is not the reality... too much "gray" and the story is diluted and loses its impact.

Like Morrowind had? I vaguely remember being forced to kill Dagoth-Ur and his plans had no more meaning the Camoran's.

i love this idea. i'd love a character that i'm forced to work with, and i'm not sure if i like. you don't know what he's up to, until the end. perhaps he becomes integral to beating the enemy, when you didn't expect him to. how bad ass would that be!!

I don't think you're getting what "grey" means in this context. Nobody said anything about "no discernible good and bad," much less "self-interested gluttons."

White is pure, stark, unadvlterated white. Black is pure, stark, unadvlterated black. It you take a sea of white and add a single drop of black, you no longer have white - you have grey.

I don't see anyone here asking that everything be in some murky middleground of ethical relativism and nihilism (though granted, there are certainly people, particularly 17 year olds who have just seen Fight Club for the first time, who are entranced by that), but simply that things be something other than pure, stark, unadvlterated white vs. pure, stark, unadvlterated black.

Since that's the reality - since there's arguably nothing in the world that's purely white or purely black - I think that's an entirely reasonable thing to expect in a role-playing game.

That said though, TES games have always had their share of gray - not a very precisely defined gray, granted, but at least something that wasn't stark white or black.

No antagonist should ever do anything because they are evil. Ever. They need true motivation, I think Alduin has that. All the antagonists of TES always have, some just seem more evil-for-the-sake-of because of their archetypes (Mehrunes: Satan).

Plenty of grey out there in other games these days. While I figure there'll be a bit in Skyrim, TES feels more of a "Destined Hero" series to me - gonna be a good guy, gonna save the world. :mohawk:

Yeah, I agree. The best villian is one you can relate with, or that you can sympathize with.

BTW in your poll it should be "tales" not "tails"
/nazi

Grey a cliche'? Isn't that ironic. Personally, I want all spectrums featured in games. Most elements are different shades of grey. Rarely, should the " cliche' " good vs evil be revealed, but it shouldn't be completely absent.

One of the best "grey" choices I can think of is choosing between Bhelen and Harrowmont in DA:O. I hope the civil war is handled like that, where neither choice is obviously the good one.

I thought this was going to be completely different. Thankfully I was wrong. I agree.

Agree that grey has now become the new cliche and characters are now written grey on purpose instead of it just leading to that. Almost to the point were you get contradictory characters.

If there's a gray choice, I don't want it slung out there. Get used to the characters some, and be able to make the decision if you think they're worth it or not.

For example, as you've risen through the ranks of the fighter's guild, some guy has been your mentor and friend, and is in every way an upstanding citizen. Then he gets hauled off to prison for allegedly murdering his wife. So, your choice is to either be his friend and break him out of prison, making you both outlaws, or to leave him in jail to face his trial where he will surely be convicted. If you don't save him, he is hung for his crime. If you do save him, you find out he was drunk that night and really did kill his wife.

That would be a cool quest opportunity. Did anyone see Lawrence of Arabia? They had the perfect gray choice in there. After crossing a difficult portion of the desert, Lawrence found out that a member of the party was missing. Everyone told him to write the man off as dead. Lawrence went back into the worst part of the desert and rescued this man at great peril to himself. Later that same man was involved in an altercation, and the only way to prevent the fragile alliance of tribes from crumbling was to kill the very man he saved. Lawrence killed the man to save the greater mission, and this drove home the idea to the arab tribesmen that their fates were sealed, when Lawrence had been working hard all the movie to prove this untrue to them.