A challenge by numbers instead of auto-scaling?

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:32 am

I think it depends on the character type. In the case of Goblins and Trolls etc., a dozen extra goblins is DEFINITELY more preffered and plausible than a single goblin warlord ( or two) being an almost even match for a hero who has faced down Daedra Lords. On the other hand, in the case of an actual Daedra Lord (Valkynaz for example), or a great dragon, scalling would be fine and expected, while an excessive number of such a creature would seem less credible.
User avatar
Hearts
 
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:26 am

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:30 am

I don't like the idea too much... but believe me I'm no fan of level scaling either. What I would prefer is that instead of just making fights last 3minutes instead of 30 seconds of pure hack and slash or run and cast...(which is what auto-leveling did) is make the AI more complex depending on your level. Have the creature dodge more often, have the bandit block more often, etc. This way it still feels realistic, you can still become "god-like" in that your skills will improve more than the npc's, but you won't have the unrealistic fights where its you versus 8 people.... which just doesn't make sense to me.
User avatar
yermom
 
Posts: 3323
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:56 pm

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:51 am

i tend to have faith in that bethesda will resolve the FPS issues from OB. with so many other games that populate your screen with dozens of enemies from open world games like GTAIV or Assassins screed, to linear shooters like COD, i assume the new iteration of their engine will handle more than 3 characters on screen at the same time with descent AI.

whoever i didnt play FO3 for longer than 5 hours or even a bit less so im not sure how it was done there. i heard it was a good middle ground between MW and OB.

Its basically what I describe it my first post and what SR is doing. You get most of the benefits of scaling and most of the benefits of static(to me at least and I did say most).

There was a dungeon part of the trailer were there were 8(?) undead surrounding the pc. So there is hope for more npcs enemies at once.
User avatar
ONLY ME!!!!
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:16 pm

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:18 pm

I think that it would be great if there was a bit of level scaling like the radscorpians to giant radscorpians or wolves to timber wolves. But I think there should be no leveling in dungeons. definitely no loot scaling and I also think there should be scaling in certain areas of the map like Red Rock Canyon in Fallout: New Vegas.
User avatar
Erich Lendermon
 
Posts: 3322
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:20 pm

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:56 pm

I don't like the idea too much... but believe me I'm no fan of level scaling either. What I would prefer is that instead of just making fights last 3minutes instead of 30 seconds of pure hack and slash or run and cast...(which is what auto-leveling did) is make the AI more complex depending on your level. Have the creature dodge more often, have the bandit block more often, etc. This way it still feels realistic, you can still become "god-like" in that your skills will improve more than the npc's, but you won't have the unrealistic fights where its you versus 8 people.... which just doesn't make sense to me.


yeah, hit could be a great idea but sadly i dont think it will be the case. AI in most games is limited enough at it's best so dumbing it down more for lower level enemies so a player will feel the AI's improvement over time it not a great idea. this only means i will feel the NPC are kinda half smart for the first 50% of my leveling.
however in melee combat it shouldnt be too hard for the AI to be a perfect block or a perfect dodge since it doesnt involve being smart, only have good timing, and that's something the AI can be perfect at, if the developer wants it to be.

i like the idea of AI are more likely to block\dodge\parry(? is there such a thing in SR) etc, especially if it comes in concert with slightly bigger numbers and slightly better levels. a mix of all three.
but frankly i'd hope that the difficulty slider will come back and that sliding it to HARDER will create the effect of better AI instead of more health for enemies.

no doubt a battle with a single NPC should last only a few seconds where each attack counts and blocking is essential.
User avatar
Prohibited
 
Posts: 3293
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:13 am

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:27 am

The low-level dungeons should be scaled up by number. Using what we know about the Fallout 3 levelling system, suppose you enter a dungeon at level 3 and it locks to low-level creatures. Then you come back at level 20, and it still has the same type of low-level creatures, but more of them. The challenge then would be to fight off the swarm. I hope the new game engine can handle moderately-sized swarms, such as 10 goblins at the same time.

I'd also like to see the AI react to "oh [censored], a high-level badass just walked into our dungeon." Perhaps a guy near the door sees you, gets scared, and runs off to alert his allies deeper in the dungeon (unless you stop him first.) Then they gather and plan to ambush you all at once.
User avatar
CORY
 
Posts: 3335
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:54 pm

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:56 pm

No auto scaling.
User avatar
Phillip Brunyee
 
Posts: 3510
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:43 pm

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 am

The low-level dungeons should be scaled up by number. Using what we know about the Fallout 3 levelling system, suppose you enter a dungeon at level 3 and it locks to low-level creatures. Then you come back at level 20, and it still has the same type of low-level creatures, but more of them. The challenge then would be to fight off the swarm. I hope the new game engine can handle moderately-sized swarms, such as 10 goblins at the same time.


what im afraid of is not the engines limitation for rendering many NPCs but the combat's system of handing multiple foes. in a locked-camera game u cant quickly change targets to attack or block like in free-camera games (like assassins creed or batman:AA or GOW etc) so there should be a big change in how u combat enemies on your sides and rear. that's what im afraid of. and bethesda are not stupid. if the combat system doesnt lend itself well to fighting many enemies than they will know this, and might not include larger groups of attackers.
User avatar
Jason White
 
Posts: 3531
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:54 pm

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:02 pm

'd also like to see the AI react to "oh [censored], a high-level badass just walked into our dungeon." Perhaps a guy near the door sees you, gets scared, and runs off to alert his allies deeper in the dungeon (unless you stop him first.) Then they gather and plan to ambush you all at once.


LOL, this sounds sweet as all hell. Things were the world reacts to you, based on what you have done or who you are, physically and not just with a couple words of extra dialog sounds really cool. I would love that.
User avatar
Auguste Bartholdi
 
Posts: 3521
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:20 am

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:47 am

what im afraid of is not the engines limitation for rendering many NPCs but the combat's system of handing multiple foes. in a locked-camera game u cant quickly change targets to attack or block like in free-camera games (like assassins creed or batman:AA or GOW etc) so there should be a big change in how u combat enemies on your sides and rear. that's what im afraid of. and bethesda are not stupid. if the combat system doesnt lend itself well to fighting many enemies than they will know this, and might not include larger groups of attackers.


We have area-of-effect spells now. I think those spells were designed to take on many enemies.
User avatar
*Chloe*
 
Posts: 3538
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:34 am

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:45 pm

Slightly by level, and slightly by numbers seems good. I don't want any leveling loot, like in Oblivion. The leveling range of an enemy should be small, and spawn rates should not get ridiculously high.
User avatar
lolly13
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:36 am

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm

We have area-of-effect spells now. I think those spells were designed to take on many enemies.


spell casters doesnt have a lot of problem dealing with many enemies since they are not usually surrounded. question is - what about melee fighters? those who use both hands for melee?
i have many solutions in mind but i hope Bethesda does to.
User avatar
gary lee
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:49 pm

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:53 pm

frankly i think that humanoid enemies are much more fun to fight since their AI tends to be a lot more sophisticated (they block, cast spells, turn away etc) so i think it's important that a player will have the enemies he likes fighting against still be around and fun to fight when u level up. also i think there SHOULD be some limitation to the numbers+skill scaling. so bandints will increase in numbers to a threshold (say up to 2 bandits at start and 7 bandits at a later levels) and once they grow to a certain number than some of the bandits will become more powerful.
i think it makes perfect sense that animals won't become more powerful , instead new more powerful animals (and creatures) show up, as u said, but for humanoid enemies it DOES make sense that they will grow slightly in their numbers, expertise and equipment.
i think that at first, when u r level 2 character, u can encounter 3 level 2 bandits and much later in the game , when u r a level 20 character, u encounter 6 level 5 bandits than it still feels realistic and fun. it makes sense the bandits will gather together and be slightly better. individually they are weak compared to the player's character, but as a group they are challenging.

it's just weird to me thinking that a game becomes easier as u progress instead of harder. i want a game to become harder as i play and get better at it. i want it to make sense as well. this is why i think some sort of progressive challenge SHOULD be included.
i read that ppl assume that there will always be weaker enemies in the world while new more powerful ones appear as u progress. that's a good way to do it, i believe, but i am a little afraid that the newer enemies that come out later will mostly be monsters that are usually shallow in their behavior (they chase, they attack.... that's it) while i believe enemies that block parry and use tactics are much more fun to fight and might not appear later. but that's just assumptions.


True but I could probably have explained my point of view a bit better, it does not only have to be creatures, I just spoke of them for the sake of diversity. What I want is to fight a group of bandits when I′m level 22 for example, where 3 of them are level 5, 1 of them is maybe level 12 and two of them at level 17, makes no sense to me how people and animals are always so alike in power. I′d also like to see maybe a level 6 polar bear one day when I′m level 8, and then maybe the next day I′d pummel a level 1 polar bear cub, and even later I′d maybe get ravaged by a level 15 polar bear.

Diversity in levels.
User avatar
Bird
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:45 am

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:31 pm

I like and chose the 1st option. Although you rise in power, there should still be challenging to fight certain foes, and not just add hitpoints to them and period.
User avatar
Sammi Jones
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:59 am

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:17 pm

True but I could probably have explained my point of view a bit better, it does not only have to be creatures, I just spoke of them for the sake of diversity. What I want is to fight a group of bandits when I′m level 22 for example, where 3 of them are level 5, 1 of them is maybe level 12 and two of them at level 17, makes no sense to me how people and animals are always so alike in power. I′d also like to see maybe a level 6 polar bear one day when I′m level 8, and then maybe the next day I′d pummel a level 1 polar bear cub, and even later I′d maybe get ravaged by a level 15 polar bear.

Diversity in levels.


i wholeheartedly agree. if there was a simple way to tell which enemy is of a higher level that could perhaps help. at least for while so the player can appreciate the fact that these enemies differ from each other.
i always though that perhaps there could be a magic that make enemies glow in different auras according to theiir level so u can recognize the more dangerous ones when u approach a group and need to decide who to shoot with an arrow first.
User avatar
Carolyne Bolt
 
Posts: 3401
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:56 am

Post » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:14 pm

The only problems I see with it is:

1. The framerate reduction. The reason the other games can do lots of NPCs is because they are low poly, disappear within moments after dying (unlike TES where the corpses stick around a bit), and incredibly simplistic in their AI (Have you ever seen a CoD enemy that didn't Shoot, Run, Crouch, Shoot, Run, Repeat?) Bethesda always does high quality and detailed models on enemies, even if people don't see it when comparing the newer stuff to it. I'm sure we will see more enemies at once but I'd be fine seeing 5-9 at once.

2. Loot. A huge gripe with TES is cash is easy as hell to get, especially at high levels. I don't think giving level 30 players a lot of weak, one shot-able level 5 enemies with armor. weapons. and various supplies is a good way to balance that. The obvious fix for this is to duplicate all the regular armor in the game, name it something to indicate it is worth less, and give that to the bandits. Instead of finding an Iron Longsword on every bandit worth 15 gold, you see a "Worn" version worth about half as much.
User avatar
benjamin corsini
 
Posts: 3411
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:32 pm

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:27 am

I'd also like to see the AI react to "oh [censored], a high-level badass just walked into our dungeon." Perhaps a guy near the door sees you, gets scared, and runs off to alert his allies deeper in the dungeon (unless you stop him first.) Then they gather and plan to ambush you all at once.

Reminds me of one RPG I played (might have been Magic Candle), where the higher the level you became, the more the possibility of the monsters running away from you!
User avatar
FITTAS
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:19 am

The only problems I see with it is:

1. The framerate reduction. The reason the other games can do lots of NPCs is because they are low poly, disappear within moments after dying (unlike TES where the corpses stick around a bit), and incredibly simplistic in their AI (Have you ever seen a CoD enemy that didn't Shoot, Run, Crouch, Shoot, Run, Repeat?) Bethesda always does high quality and detailed models on enemies, even if people don't see it when comparing the newer stuff to it. I'm sure we will see more enemies at once but I'd be fine seeing 5-9 at once.

2. Loot. A huge gripe with TES is cash is easy as hell to get, especially at high levels. I don't think giving level 30 players a lot of weak, one shot-able level 5 enemies with armor. weapons. and various supplies is a good way to balance that. The obvious fix for this is to duplicate all the regular armor in the game, name it something to indicate it is worth less, and give that to the bandits. Instead of finding an Iron Longsword on every bandit worth 15 gold, you see a "Worn" version worth about half as much.


i think we've seen a lot of games that solved these issues.

1. characters can have a few different LODs to they are not that high poly from afar. no one would even notice.
and no, i didnt see any COD enemies that do that but i didnt sea ny deadra AI does more either. i agree that the human NPCs, the ones that have routines , are more complicated that most of the combat AIs in other games but i wasnt talking about village residents increase in numbers but the combat NPCs like the enemies. i really dont think that computing power will be an issue.

2. i think that if a creature is of a lower level than he drops low level gear. no fear of getting high level gear just because there are more low level enemies. also bethesda could always balance loot to be less likely to drop to counter more enemies.

now, personally i'd prefer les enemies that are more challenging and sophisticated than a large mob of mindless undead, but this was just an idea on how to balance the leveling-up with the decrease of challenge.
a game that gets EASIER over time is not something i find attractive. there SHOULD be a way to create fun challenge without resorting to auto-scaling all the time .
User avatar
Jack Moves
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:51 am

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:33 am

ah but they have tackled the infamous oblivion scaling issue they have changed the leveling to where its more like fallout 3's scaling. so dont worry you wont constantly feel as though you havent gotten any stronger at all. there will be creatures that are weak rats wolves skeletons draugr a few of the dwemer robots maybe even trolls. but there are gonna be creatures that put up a fight no matter how mighty you are such as dragons ice wraiths and saber toothed cats and to some extent probably bears.
User avatar
Darren
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:33 pm

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:34 am

How about a sixth option:
Just by leveling up enemies, but not like Oblivion. More like Fallout 3.
User avatar
joseluis perez
 
Posts: 3507
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:51 am

Post » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:05 am

would make an amazing seige seen :D

instead of 10's of opponents, you fight hundreds :)
User avatar
Marguerite Dabrin
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:33 am

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim