Then clearly one needs to suggest to the Bash team what it still needs so that it can be added - they're no more clairvoyant than you or I on what something still needs to run smoother.



Negative Ghostrider, they are both for both.

IMO, I hate OBMM as a system for installing mods. Zero resource conflict intelligence beyond "A + B + C all have the same filename". I despise the way its scripting system works even more.

Before I dove into modding full steam, anything I found that was only offered in OMOD format was automatically rejected because the system is *NOT* player friendly and makes it a monumental pita to convert to a normal archive for manual installation. Yes, that's right, manual installation. I was fully prepared to deal with that rather than mess with an app that just didn't have what it took to be truly worth something.

Were OBMM to have been released in the same condition as FOMM, things would be radically different because FOMM is actually a useful tool that serves a useful purpose. So the demand for BAIN doesn't really exist for its users.

The moment Bash gets BSA packing and unpacking, OBMM will cease to have any use for me at all. Whether from a player's perspective or a modder's perspective.

Much as I had to extract all Morrowind mod exe's (which was all the rage at one time) to separate folders before installing them manually. I dislike when things are hidden as in exe's and OMODs as I like to know what's actually installed.

I did They will change the wizard functionality so that BAIN can edit a mod's ini file to help with configuration. I don't think they intend to change it so that a mod will be added to your load order once you install it. So I will continue to keep answering complaints from users that my mod doesn't work and my first response will be "Did you install using BAIN?". If they say yes, then I will paste in my standard response about selecting extra directories and making sure the mod is actually ticked off in the mods tab.



The other challenge with WB is getting users to actually upgrade to use the new features. It is so hard to install that there are a lot of people out there that don't want to upgrade for fear of breaking their installation. I'll guess I'll have to change my packaging to say use OBMM or BAIN if using WB 2.9.x or later, once the new wizard functionality is available.

Modders and technical players (to include people like Psymon ) have the knowledge and willingness to dive in and figure out the structure of Oblivion mods to do manual installations or use BAIN. Most players don't. I've got users who can barely figure how to turn their damned machine on, let alone install Wrye Bash and use BAIN. I've been packaging my mods as BAIN compatible archives with omod conversion data. I actually had one guy demand to know where the omod was... *sigh*

I don't expect my users to know the structure of Oblivion or how to build Bash patches. So I'll continue to support OBMM and supply omod conversion data or maybe even the omod itself. But I'll also help the more technically savvy and release them as BAIN compatible too.

So what I'm hearing from TheNiceOne and Andalabay is that OBMM is more convenient for getting their mods disbursed and installed with minimal questions.

One could then make the point that actually OBMM is for modders - to make their life more convenient. If one wanted to be contrary.

Adalaybay you could also put in readme to activate esp after using BAIN.

What is happening with Bash and ongoing and rather open development by a team is I think unique and special in terms of mods and mod use throughout most games not just Bethesda.

I think if "annealing" (is that what it's called? See my first post where I talk about my ideal mod installation system, basically that's the only reason I even created this thread in the first place) is added into OBMM, this discussion wouldn't happen...

I'm not sure if OBMM will be updated anymore, though.

I don't have a particular problem with OMOD, in fact, I use if for about a fifth of the mods I have installed. I also recommend it as a starting tool for the first few mods to be installed for all my (real life) friends who want to try the game with mods. However, I do think it needs to be stressed to player that if they want to have more than a few mods installed, particuarly if these mods make large scale changes to the game, Bain (and wrye bash in general) are vital tools.

In my first ever install of Oblivion I only used OMOD and the picture was not very pretty. I'm suprised I even got to about 120 esps before the whole thing blew up in my face. It was such a painful experience that I left playing Oblivion for nine months. When I came back and switched to using Bain for the bulk of my modding, as well as running a bashed patch, these problems vanished.

I'm really the one to blame for the problems I experienced, however I'm sure it would've been helpful to a me and a lot of other people if it was made more clear within the community (particuarly on FAQs and the like) that Wrye Bash is essential if you want to run more than a few mods at once have more than one large installation.

Not true - I present to you: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32277

It approaches what you ask for but falls short of full annealing powers.

Fallout Mod Manager has actually more annealing powers - it can handle replacers one file at a time instead of by bulk one mod at a time. That is power - even though I think that finding the conflicts is still unwieldy with FOMM.

OBMM extended offers you the option (yes/no) to overwrite existing data files (esp and replacers) but only at time of install. To change you then have to reinstall - so you are back to the issue in the OP. Unlike BAIN where you just drag and drop the archive then hit anneal.

... I just realized that I got a new label 'technical player' ... well at least this one is not four letters long. Truth is if I could get away with never thinking about what happens under the hood I would never look.

This is sweet and I have been using it for a while. One launcher, all Oblivion related utilities. It's nice.

Hahahaha - Psymon, come back after you've released your first mod

Creating installs for OBMM is a royal pain in the butt. It takes at least three tries to get everything packaged properly. And writing OBMM scripts is a lesson in the most nonsensical way of doing something that was ever invented.

Users rarely read readme's. Inexperienced users NEVER read readme's. And of course they are the ones that should. Then you have the ones that do read the readme's, but don't understand a word you said. Even I have read readme's and have no clue what the author is trying to say.

The truth of the matter is that packaging something up for BAIN is much easier than OBMM. Even writing a BAIN wizard is easier. We'll see if that is still the case when they add the extra functionality to the wizard script.

No, TheNiceOne and I package things up for OBMM to make it easier for our users. I believe we both have an application development background and know that we could never deliver something to our clients that is as counter-intuitive as Wrye Bash is. So we try to make it as easy to use our mods as possible. And if that decreases the number of support requests we get, all the better.

Yeah but the ones who read and understand the readme - they you never hear from. So subtract the number of help me requests from total downloads to get a rough on that figure.

I get your point though. Bash would not have gotten to where it is today without the back and forth with mod makers and I think this is true with BAIN as well. A synergistic effort creates the utility.

In fact look at fallout which had no bash for nearly 2 years.

And this right here is the crux of the entire problem. Lazy users with no motivation to learn even the basics of a hobby they themselves have entered into of their own accord. A product of the "instant gratification" generation.

I for one don't think we should spend any time catering to this attitude as it merely breeds more like them. If they're too lazy to read your readme, they're clearly too lazy to learn about what needs to be done when modding a game as sophisticated as Oblivion. You can make your installer as brainlessly simple as possible and they'll still come to you later with support requests for things that are in your readme.

So there's just no reason to put up with it, and is one factor in why I don't cater to those sorts of people. If it costs me downloads, oh well. Their loss, not mine. Does that make me a lazy modder? Who knows, but it keeps me a sane one.

Yes, it's all a question of balance. I'm a little more patient because I know how frustrating this can be. I can spot users that don't read the readme fairly quickly and I will tell them to do so. But I also recognize others who are just not getting it. I try to help them a little more. I am not a fan of Wrye Bash or his attitude, so I don't make people run it. If I see someone with a large load list that doesn't have a bashed patch, I will recommend that they get WB and create one, but I don't demand it.

If Wrye Bash had a proper user interface with clear instructions, it would be different. But it has neither. Sorry, but right-clicking on a column heading to access a menu is not a proper user interface. That's one nice thing about the Mac - you play by the rules or you don't play at all.

I don't care about downloads or if people use my mods. But if they do use my mods, I do my best to make sure they can run them. Yes, we're going to get people who can't be bothered and I don't bother with them either, but I think we need to allow for the non-tech savvy or those who don't speak English.

OMODs are definitely easier to use, however I do agree that they are a pain in the butt if your installing mods that overlap. I did however have to use Bain when the Unique Landscapes OMOD had errors in it and it wasn't that bad. It does annoy me how BAIN takes like 5 minutes to load before you can install or uninstall anything.

Even so I find OMODs sufficient for mostly everything. I was pretty old school when I first started Modding Oblivion though as I played Morrowind a lot and installed everything by hand for it. Never in Morrowind did I need a Bashed patch or felt the need for any major overhaul mods, not that I would remember anyways.

Even so getting used to Wyre Bash I think it's a very handy tool to use for it's tweaking and merging abilities.

I wasn't aware it was possible for a program to have an attitude. Programs are neither aggressive, nor friendly, they just "are". It's almost god-like in its purity when you think of it that way.



Uh, what? This very web browser I'm typing into has right-click menus on column headings. My text editor has right-click menus on column headings. OBMM has them. My email client has them. I'm fairly confident you'll find right-click menus to be an extremely common thing with all Windows apps.

If you're playing on a Mac, that would tend to explain much about your hostility toward Wrye Bash's windows-centric interface. But that means the attitude isn't coming from the program Windows users like myself might be just as quick to lambast your OS for having an "improper" interface simply because we're not used to it.

Which I think is the core issue here. Players aren't used to Wrye Bash, and it's because people are still living in 2007 where bagging on it was the in-thing to do. So they're resistant to change. Find a true newbie, teach them only BAIN and BOSS, and I guarantee you that exposure to OBMM 6 months later would feel just as foreign and out of place to them as the reverse is now for so many people.

It's a lot like the resistance to moving away from DOS to Windows to begin with. Most of my hardcoe gaming friends, along with myself, simply refused to go along with it until we had no other choice. Why? Because DOS worked and we liked it and didn't think changing over was useful. Times changed though, and we all adapted.

Times are changing for Oblivion modding and the users need to adapt. It's really just that simple. The days of OBMM are over. Modding for this game has become far more complex, far more interesting, and it requires more advanced tools to keep everything working together. Clinging to the tools of the past won't help, it will only end up hindering.



I do my best as well to be sure they can run them, and run them smoothly, and that is precisely why I will never endorse the use of OBMM as a proper mod management tool. The people who can't be bothered couldn't be bothered anyway so why coddle them? You have to be at least somewhat tech savvy to mod games, I don't care what games they are. As far as not speaking English, I really have no idea what that has to do with this situation.

I agree with most of what Arthmoor says here - once you know where the commands are - they couldn't be more accessible.

The problem I think is with documentation.

Even my long exhaustive thread or tomlongs site do not do justice to elaborating on the readme that Bash has. It needs a wiki to itself anymore actually. And to have features explained, illustrated with pictures and examples, and indexed so that people can find the information. Development definitely is preceding and running far ahead of documentation. The little that is done is almost like quickly scribbled bullet points on the new - and it builds with each new release.

I manage an IT help desk for a well sized company. Forget documentation. Only a small group of people follow instructions and educate themselves. Everyone else keeps calling with the same question over and over. Hey, it keeps me employed.

Same here for players. I think it was last week or before, it seemed that everyday there was the same post from different people asking the same beginner questions. Geez louise, read through 2 pages at least to see if someone asked it already! If they won't read through the forums then they will not read documentation. I will acknowledge that some modders can't write documentation.

Players want simple. Make the PC like an xbox. Load the game and play.

Regardless of anything, OBMM was great when I started installing mods, would look for ones that had omods. Double click omod, then activate, answer questions if there were some, done. Not so simple with BAIN. Although the AWLS wizard is the bomb. Hope everyone makes one.

As for editing the ini? Only Darnified UI does this from all the mods I have been playing, unless you talk about editing the mod's ini, then yes, it is an extra step, but easier than getting a mod into a BAIN format, at least for me now. My 2 cents.

Ah, no, actually I'm a Windows application developer that recently switched to a Mac when I started doing web development and a lot of graphics editing. My point about WB is that the ONLY way to access the functions is through right-click menus that vary depending on which tab is active. This is a horrible UI and not one that I would get away with foisting on users in my professional capacity. Right-click menus are meant to be a convenience, not the only method of access. You'll find that on every professionally developed Windows application you use, including FireFox and other "freeware", every single function that you access via the pop-up menu is accessible by an option in the main menu at the top of the page. Furthermore, my comments about WB relate to Wrye's attitude that if you are not blessed with the divine intelligence needed to understand his readme, then you are clearly a moron who does not deserve the privilege of an answer should you be bold enough to ask him about something. For all its faults, at least OBMM has a series of buttons on the side that are clearly labelled with their functions and you're not guessing where to find a particular option. How do you do BSA redirection with Wrye? Open the Installers tab and right-click on the Packages heading. Well, I'm not using BAIN, so why would I activate the Installers tab? Well clearly you are a moron and don't deserve to use WB's BSA redirection.

As far as not speaking English goes - I could turn this around on you. You asked for help in using the Nifskope icon generator created by a German programmer and couldn't understand the readme and therefore how to use the tool. Well by your reasoning, then you are either a moron or can't be bothered anyway, so why should you be coddled? I'm just saying that you saw how bad the results were when you tried to take a German readme and translate it to English - just think for a moment on how hard it is to take one of our readme's and translate it to another language.

It'd be nice if some us got off our high horses every once in a while and put ourselves in some poor player's shoes. I've had players apologize for not reading my readme or not understanding and thanking me for their help - I'll accept that every single time and thank them right back. Yeah I'm a stupid Canadian.

Huh?
That was actually said to you?

Two threads going today about bash and high horses (http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168257-this-is-the-last-straw/page__view__findpost__p__17207715) - why am I missing all this highfalutin talk? Is it happening when I'm not looking. Am I guilty of being in the know :bonk: ... not likely.

Well then to put it bluntly, WTF does the Mac have to do with this then? How about we leave out the tangential garbage?



Honestly this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about the right click menus. If it's such a burning issue with the playerbase, why has it yet to be brought up to the people currently in charge of developing the app? I don't follow development of it religiously but I'm pretty sure if you or someone else raised the issue of "hey, there's no file menu at the top" that it might well be considered as a feature request. Feel like such things get ignored on the forums? Use the sourceforge page to get more attention on the issue.



Not true. Windows Explorer itself directly violates this paradigm. There are numerous functions in Explorer which have no access method at all via what little remains of their top menu. World + dog seems to be getting along just fine without those menus. Internet Explorer has been violating this since version 7 when they make you jump hoops to even get the kind of menu you're talking about back in place. Thus making it's default configuration entirely right-click driven. The sheeple haven't bleated out in horror over it yet. In fact, the only people I've heard complain at all are sticks in the mud like myself who didn't like the change (for what little we use IE to begin with).



Then if I may suggest, drop your preconceived notions about the rest of the people who have taken over the project and realize they are not Wrye. They are not abrasive like he was. Every last one of the people on the project now are fairly open to things being done. Otherwise the app wouldn't have progressed to where it is now. You may well be clinging to the past more than you realize. It isn't a nightmare to effect change in Wrye Bash today.



Actually one can be left guessing quite a bit, because I've had to tell several people who use the app more regularly than I do where to find the BSA timestamp options. There is no clearly labeled "BSA stuff is this way" button there, and guess what? No top level menu system either. Seems WB isn't the only popular utility suffering from your big pet peeve.

"How do I do BSA redirection in OBMM? Well I need to do Archive Invalidation apparently, but wait, people said not to do that anymore. I'm so confused!" <--- Paraphrased from an actual PM I responded to begging for help because apparently everyone just assumed the guy should know what they were talking about. Clearly this person was a moron for having to ask the question and getting jeered about it instead of someone simply answering him.

THAT is the largest problem of all btw. Not the utilities people use, but the elitism that is being generated by the people who could just simply answer the damn question instead of dragging it on for 20 posts in a thread.



Again, I fail to see what this has to do with anything. I asked for help in translating the readme, and to again be perfectly blunt, was told to fend for myself or use Google to translated it. Well gee, thanks, but I could have done that without asking for the assist. If you want to talk about high horses, well, that one seems to be standing tall.

It's still entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand here and I'm still not sure why you're bringing it into the picture.

Also, I think you know me well enough to know I'm not going to just toss my users to the wolves without a lifeline, but you also know that I'm going to expect some minimal amount of effort on their part as well and tend to take a dim view of those who clearly have not bothered to crack open a readme and look at the instructions.

Sorry if this comes across harshly but it's beginning to seem like that's the only way to get through to people anymore on stuff like this.

Only that the Mac has strict standards on UI design and every application must meet those standards or it won't run on the Mac. Basically every app must respond to certain commands and it makes it much easier to use a Mac application because you already know how it's going to function in a very basic sense.



Fine, I didn't think they'd be that receptive. We are discussing BAIN vs OBMM here, so I didn't mention the general lack of convention in regards to "UI rules" when it comes to gaming related applications. Blender is actually the worst offender as far as I'm concerned...



Even Microsoft is embarassed about Explorer - both varieties. But you have to know some MS old-timers to get anyone to admit that. However your point is correct, MS doens't follow "UI rules" either. Once again, the reason for the Mac reference.



Same comment about being receptive...



Never said OBMM was perfect either. Also just finished doing exactly that in a TESA thread a few hours ago. If I know the answer, I do my best to respond.



I directed you to a better source for the translation. I also explained some of the syntax and said that if you needed further help, just post and I would post the translation... I don't speak German, but after taking a couple of classes in it, I learned how to translate it better and also learned a better appreciation for the differences. Just pointing out the issues that non-English speakers encounter.



I'm just trying to point out that not everybody speaks English, so your well-worded readme might be difficult for some people to understand. And some readme's don't translate at all, unless you know a little bit about both languages involved - which is the point I was trying to make about the German app. So when somebody comes across as being too lazy to read your readme, it could be because they don't understand English - that was simply my point.

None of this was directed at you. This is simply a debate. I'm just trying to counter some of the rhetoric I see on this forum sometimes and offering a counter-point. If I have succeeded, then somebody might pause before calling a player an idiot when he comes to you for the 1000th time with a stupid question. If not, then you will continue to tell your users to rtfm. Or even worse, which some mods have done...

In the end we hope users will use OBMM or BAIN to install their mods. I'll try to make some notes, but I'm not sure the WB team wants to hear from me...

I know quite a few people, within and outside of the IT industry, who loathe the default Mac UI. Well, UIs. Not that Windows' are considered perfect either, btw!

But whatever the case, there are very few PC users who cannot navigate (enough to get by) with Explorer - both versions. Whatever one's opinions on aesthetics and such, it's not exactly rocket science.


edit: And neither is Wrye Bash. Particularly with the aid of the Pictorial Guide, for those who feel they need it.

We're spinning our wheels on the foreign language thing. I still don't see why it's relevant. Folks who don't understand English are going to find it difficult to get answers from people who don't speak their language either.

If the person understands enough English to track down a mod's release thread, post a question, and read answers, logic dictates they understand enough to parse a readme written in English as well. So the kind of people you're talking about won't be as common as you're playing them up to be.



You haven't given any indication why you think they don't want to hear from you. Are you still basing this on your perceptions of how Wrye himself handled things? You are aware he's got little if any direct involvement these days, right?

@Breton Paladin: Indeed. WB isn't rocket science, and compared to modding for other games out there, OB in general is pretty easy to grasp.

I don't remember being particularly bothered with learning how to use Wrye Bash at the time. As long as you're not brand new to modding, the tool is hardly going to challenge you. Having BOSS reccomend you use tags is acutally quite motivational to get Wrye Bash going.

That said, I did think OBMM served me as well as a stepping stone, even if I stuck around the thing far longer than I should have.

I completely agree. BAIN is an amazing program, superior to OBMM in many ways... except 90% of mod users will more than likely take one look at it, say "screw this", and give up on modding altogether. It's very far from user friendly (the right-click to access a menu example is spot on - how would you even know that menu is there?) and only usable by the most hardcoe.



Your posts are great. It's true that unfortunately Wrye Bash has an almost indecipherable UI, and that other popular programs having many of the same faults doesn't make it any better. I understand that the WB developers are probably programmers and have very little experience with UI design, but it's still a shame.

Unfortunately that reality is a fantasy. Those same people are likely to get into deep water and have faulty installs then blame the modders or -us- then just give up without ever posting once.

If it could be done as you say it would be.

To get a really well modded (moderate to a lot of mods) game install one has to give up the fantasy that these games are plug and play. I know the esp are short for plugin and gives the illusion of just pop it in and go, but as anyone who has used a moderate amount of mods know - they don't always play nice together and if you want to debug your own load order (instead of whining about it) then you have to learn tes4edit for mods and take up BAIN for replacers.

I too would like to live in a world where the installation of mods is plug and play and all the joy none of the work, but that approach earned me three reinstalls and a nightmare keeping track of replacers. It just didn't work with OBMM but it does with BAIN.

Regardless of what I want there is the truth of it too. It is work and it has a payoff. Think about it - most mods are installed manually in other games - BAIN just automates the installation of manual installing. OBMM is the odd one out in the grand scheme of things with its hidden functions and black box installing. Those same people would not be modding most other games either.