I am using SM Combat Hide, and this does a wonderful job of making it so you can run away from an enemy and thereby have them lose your trail.

I am also using Let There Be Darkness and Real Lights, as well as vastly decreased nighttime ambient light.

The problem with this is, it greatly unbalanced the game in favor of the PC where sneak attacks are concerned because the light levels basically boost your sneak. The vanilla game also was unbalanced though, its not just due to these mods. The same problems occur in Vanilla, just at higher actual sneak values. You could basically just repeatedly sneak attack most creatures and they would just stand there and take your hits without even reacting. With the things modded above for realism in light levels, this effect happens at even lower sneak levels than vanilla when in dark spaces.

I also have a problem with Chameleon high enough allowing you to strike enemies and they just run away. Its basically the same problem.

What would solve both of these entirely would be a mod that, when you strike your opponent, it puts a token on you that completely negates all other checks on the enemies perception of you, but this only lasts a few seconds, then is removed restoring normal perception checks. If you haven't hit them again in those seconds, their ability to detect you is calculated again as normal. This would simulate that even if they can't see you, they still know something is attacking them from nearby, and will swing their weapon at you in the dark to defend themselves, and enter alerted state instead of just standing there while you pummel their brain dead husk.

A little more advanced I'm sure, but it would also be cool if a ranged spell or arrow attack would only have a chance to put this token on you, but not put it on you 100% of the time. Not sure what kind of calculation to do with that, maybe just 50-50 would be good enough. Even if the token was put 100% of the time with ranged though, since it would only last a short while, it would likely fall off before they completely got to where you were, forcing them to then recalculate your position with regular perception checks again, so that would be fine.

Does such a mod, or anything that works differently than I described but addresses the same issue, exist?

Grab Duke Patricks Near miss arrow shots alert the targets, and dead bodys alert NPCs. The former also works with magic bolts.

I just recently spent a lot of time researching this, and have a mod in beta that replaces how detection works. It might resolve some of the issues that you describe, although I have not tried it with the two mods you mentioned.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170938-wipzbeta-new-mod-sneaking-detection-recalibrated/

The first issue that you describe doesn't need a token so much as a game setting change. However, when a target is attacked, in the vanilla default, they get a 100 point bonus to detect you, which is usually enough in most cases, unless you have a lot going for you.

The 100% chameleon issue is a totally different matter though. The way Oblivion's detection system works is that if you are Invisible, or have 100% Chameleon engaged, you are completely undetectable, either by sight or sound. (The Oblivion game manual's description of how it works is incorrect when it suggests that you might be heard). Also, Oblivion looks to see if you are Invisible or have 100 Chameleon first before processing the rest of the detection. One thing I am considering is including an option in the ini that prevents you from having 100% Chameleon. If the setting is on, and your Chameleon was to ever rise above 100, it would adjusted down to 99, and thus force detection processing. But that's fairly tricky stuff.

If you want to read up a bit more on how detection works, read this article: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Category:Detection

Placing a token on you won't help nearly as much as using a mod that modifies the NPCs behavior. Note though that there are already thresholds and different behaviors for different types of creatures. So some may be more on alert than others.

After reading on perception checks, I still don't know what value I could modify on an NPC or creature that would change their awareness level. I tried making a test NPC with 100 sneak, and a test NPC with 1 sneak... and both of them seemed to do the exact same things... see me every time no matter how dark it was. NPCs that I didn't create myself cannot seem to see me at all in dark dungeons if I mod my sneak to 100, no matter how many times I hit them. The NPCs I created to test detection seemed to both have super perception totally different from the NPCs I didn't create, regardless of sneak 1, or sneak 100.

What am I missing here?

When you are running your tests, which mods are loaded? Was the new SDR one of them?

I found that using the barebones only is best because that establishes your "control group" so to speak. Then add mods back in to see what the changes are.

The behavior you describe certainly sounds mod related, it's just a question of pinning down which one(s).

What, aside from unloading mods, would you do to intentionally decrease or increase a particular actor's detection capabilities? I guess that's the question I really mean to ask. What stat is responsible for this? Is it just their Sneak skill for NPCs and their Stealth modifier for creatures that determines the difference between different actor's detection capabilities?

Short answer: Modify either the detector's sneak skill or the player's sneak skill. Almost all other factors are environmental.

Long answer: Everything I describe below is based on how unmodified Oblivion works when it comes to detection. This is just a brief summary of the highlights. If you really want to get into it, you can read the full article on the Oblivion detection formula here: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Category:Detection

There are three main factors when determining detection:
Skill
Sight
Sound

All three categories use distance, and the chance to detect increases linearly as the detector gets closer to the player.

Skill:
Only the Sneak skill is used for any of the vanilla detection formula. All NPCs and creatures have a sneak skill. The "Skill" factor is a skill against skill contest. Higher mastery levels of sneak skill confer additional benefits to nullifying sound penalties.

Sight:
Sight penalties are nullified by either a lack of line of sight, Invisibility, 100%+ chameleon, or 100% blindness on the detector. The amount of light on the player has a significant impact on the player being detected. Dark good. Torches and sunlight bad.

Sound:
There is a base sound penalty that applies whenever you move, that penalty increases when you run.
There is an additional sound penalty for the weight of your footwear.
The footwear penalty is nullified when you reach Journeyman mastery in sneak.
The movement penalty is nullified when you reach Expert mastery in sneak.

There are additional modifiers for sleeping targets, if you have attacked a target, or if you are in combat with another target.

Hope that helps. At this point, if you still have questions, read the article on detection linked above. If you still have questions after that, ask away. Or better yet, try out my mod.

Well there some mods thats can help you, try them and chose best suiting to you

Nerf sneak skill
Sneak Penalties
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35792
SneakClang
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31675
SDR - Sneaking Detection Recalibrated
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385

Enchance NPC behavior
Duke Patricks Fresh Kills Now Alert The NPCs
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18065
Duke Patricks - Near Miss Magic And Arrows Alert The Target
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16150
Reneers Guard Overhaul
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5977
Phitts Phighting Phixes
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32651

I've tried out various ones of these mods, and also SM Combat Hide. I've tried to modify the sneak settings in my own mod. Nothing I use or do gets me what I'm looking for. All I want is for the stupid NPCs to not just stand there and die, and for smarter NPCs to not get a completely non-immersive beacon on your location... if its dark, they should lose you and enter alterted state after a few seconds. Its just stupid that my screen is PITCH BLACK and I cannot see anything, and my character's sneak is 100, yet the opponent is locked on to me like a magnet. It also makes no sense that I could be amidst a forest of trees and rocks, have a sneak of 100, and after 10 seconds or so, here comes my opponent locked on to me in the middle of running... not like he just spotted me again after looking and starts running... he is already running toward my location.

I tried to make my own mod where I set the value for fSneakTargetInCombatBonus to 0 so that once an actor was in combat with the PC, they wouldn't just get an arbitrary bonus to sneak and be unable to lose the player. I inteded to then make a script that I would find a way to apply to all actors in the game that gave them buffs to their sneak skill that decayed over time like so:

Sneak increased by 100 for 3 seconds, by 50 for 2 seconds, by 25 for 1 second, and then back to their default level. This way, if you didn't hit them again for as many as 3 seconds, and the natural conditions of lighting were such that they would not be able to detect you without this buff, they would lose you.

The first problem is... whenn fSneakTargetInCombatBonus is set to 0... they never enter combat with you in the first place. Instead of just not getting an initial buff to detection, all actors only flee when struck by a sneak attack, even in broad daylight. This is infuriating. I never noticed on prior playthroughs because I was a warrior in one file, and a sneaky conjurer in another file, so I didn't really focus on hitting anything myself and ran away like a sissy on that file if ever detected. But trying to be an assassin character is completely awful. I guess this isn't how the mechanic actually works, but the effect of how detection works is that once an actor has started combat with you, its like they have a homing beacon on you... it should be that it actively continues to check if they can see you or not. Too much to ask I guess.

Yup, it sure is frustrating.

First off though, the setting you mentioned is not quite the one you are looking for. The FSneakTargetInCombatBonus is the bonus for any other NPC to detect you once you are in combat. So if you are in combat with A, and B and C are in detection range of A, the bonus applies to B and C.

The bonus a target gets to attack you when you attack tgem is found here:
http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/FSneakTargetAttackBonus

The default is 100. The detection sccript constantly checks every frame of they can see you. But when you are engaged in combat with someone, you have to get their detection level down to -50 or lower in order to lose them.

Let's say you are sneaking up from behind, and their detection level against you is -10. If they were never aware of you, they won't notice you. When you attack them, several things happen:
They turn around: now they get line of sight and lighting bonuses
You attacked then: 100 point bonus.
You are in combat (may or may not apply): 25 point bonus

With all that against you, you can't just turn a corner and duck into a shadow. You have to run fast, far, and put some distance, as well as sticking to the shadows. In most cases, unless you have a very high sneak skill and tgeir's is very low, you have to get outside the detection range before you have a chance of losing them.

When you set any setting to 0, you have to be careful because that might turn it off, not just reduce/increase the penalty. It's hard to say. Try setting fSneakInCombatBonus to 10, FSneakTargetAttackBonus to 50, and the third threshold of iAICombatMinDetection to -35.

These three settings have the most to do with what you are talking about, and will make it much easier for you to attack, run, and hide.

Also, on a side note, when you sneak attack someone, and they can't detect you, they flee because they don't know where it is coming from.

Good luck.

Oh, and please, read the article on Detection that I mentioned in an earlier post. You keep asking questions that are answered by it. It's the difinitive starting point.

Thank you so very much for your patience and continued responses. I hope I can use the fix you described above in conjunction with your overall mod, because I also need a way to make it harder to not be detected by smart characters in the first place and your mod seems to offer that.

I read the article, but I didn't understand what the -50 factor was about until your most recent post. Setting this value closer to 0 along with SM Combat Hide mod's ability to alter the amount of time this condition needs to be possible to make the NPC stop looking for you etc, is closer than I was starting to think was even possible. Thank you very much, this has greatly improved things... now if only the NPC would discover your location if they physically collide with you while in search mode, I think this would make things perfect.

Edit: Actually, your mod adding LOS buffs on proximity does exactly this. So, combined, your released mod plus the tweak you outlined for me have almost completely done the trick! Thank you very much.

Now the only two problems that remain are that sneak archery is still way overpowered at high sneak levels and many creatures, especially undead, are still detection stupid.

Great! Glad it's working.

You can customize the sneak atrack multipliers in my mod in tue basic settings. Choose oprion 4, and then set the settings to taste. The defaults are set to vanilla values, but you can see some of the alternate tracks.

Side note on the collision factor: It was my goal to have them notice you on collision, but I could figure it out, so the proximity LOS bumo was the best alternate I could come up with.

The undead factor doesn't surprise me, they probably aren't very sneaky, mainly 'cause they are dead. Only way to change that is to create your own mod and have it modify the sneak values of the various undead creatures.

Detection is not level/power dependant, so a low level character with a very high sneak will have a much better chance of detecting you than a very powerful character with a very low or non-existent sneak.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it all plays out. The current SDR esp only handles events up to the moment you are detected. I might add a second optional esp later down the line that goes into more complex AI behavior after you've been detected, but that could be some time away, so there's no guarantee I'll get around to it.

With regards to archery, I actually meant archery and projectile magic, and I didn't mean the sneak attack multiplier. With the mods I have that make things dark, using a ranged attack results in succesfully attacking without being detected very very easily. I wouldn't know where to start to try to help with this one either.

That is indeed a problem. Detection scales to distance, so by lowering the values to make up close sneaking "feel right" to you, it will also have the adverse effect of making ranged sneak attacks much easier as you stated.

I've been thinking more about eventually putting a second esp or maybe just an expanded ini that impacts the AI's behavior after the detection event. I'm not exactly sure how it works in the actual game, but I think the NPC keeps its big bonus to detect you for x period of time and then eventually gives up. I don't get the impression it degrades any. It makes sense to me that if you get attacked you would hunt down the attacker, assuming you can see him.

My thought is that the target gets a big 100 point bonus initially, but it drops by one point for each second that the player is out of LOS. Basically this would represent the growing frustration of not being able to see you and eventually giving up. I think that would be a nice alternative to what is probably a 100 point bonus one frame and no bonus the next after the search/combat period expires. However, if they see you, the bonus stops dropping.

Edit: If you fall back into their line of sight, the bonus starts going up again each second as they are encouraged to hunt you down.

"Where'd he go?"

"There he is!"

"Darn it, lost him again!"

It would never go above the maximum (100), and never go below zero. That might do a decent job of things, and perhaps allow some of the other settings to go back the way they were.

There could be other factors thrown in as well. For instance % of health and fatigue of the detector, if it is really low, that might interfere with their ability to find you. (concussion, blood/sweat in the eyes).

You could also factor in how much noise they are making too. So if they are moving around, that would make it difficult for them to hear you depending on what they are wearing. So ideally, you wait for them to start moving, and you mive when they move, and stop when they stop. That sort of thing.

Lots of possibilities. Tricky to program. Probably going to be a version 2.0 sort of thing.

Wow, that goes way beyond just addressing sneak detection in a general sense, and into customizing the AI, and more power to you. If you do start to do stuff like this, make sure to make a WIP thread and don't use this little stupid questions of mine thread

In the meantime, I added Duke Patrick's Near Miss etc.. mod in addition to the tweak to SM Combat hide along with your Mod, and all together things are greatly improved if still not perfect. I'm not sure if its how the mod works by itself or if the 3 are all addressing detection so they are messing with each other, but after installing Duke's sometimes, the NPC dances around, and sometimes they run straight toward you but still haven't detected you (like they knew where the shot came from, what direction) and only detect you if you are still standing there by the time they get to you. Its still a little bit unbelievable because they run right toward you, and sometimes still nothing happens, sometimes the NPC will still just stand there for a few seconds and then start searching.

One thing totally unrelated to any of these mods that makes all of this a lot better though is 2 things... increasing the amount of damage done to bows through use, increasing arrow costs, increasing spell costs for target spells, and above all, modding out the crosshair. With the crosshair removed, you are more likely to miss. With all of the other things modded, it makes ranged attacks more expensive and not something you are going to spam. No backwards running also makes it so if your first attack doesn't kill your opponent, you can't just keep an eye on them while you sneak backwards constantly out of their reach as they run around to find you... you have to turn around and run and also lose sight of them in order to try to remain undetected.

Boy... after writing all that, I don't know how anyone ever played a sneaky character in the stock game... there's so much room for improvement over vanilla!