Also, something I was debating with Psymon, regarding the use of these creature mods and the item mods from the sister thread (he can correct me if I'm misstating his position):

Basically, his point was that if you're going to install a bunch of additional creatures and items, you're going to end up with a bunch of stuff in the game that isn't balanced with a vanilla setup. Therefore instead of trying to add a bunch of disparate stuff you're better of just going with an overhaul or something like MMM, since they're designed with balance in mind you won't have to worry about running into a creature that's impossible to beat or pick up a weapon that kills everything in a single hit.

My response was basically, "why assume the people making the various creature/item mods are incompetent?" I'm sure there are a number of mods on these lists that include creatures/items poorly balanced with the vanilla game. But I'm also sure that a lot of modders had balance in mind when creating their creatures/items, so adding them to the game will do nothing but expand the diversity of what you come across.

The whole motivation for these lists and compiling as many of these mods as possible is to make it easier for someone to add something simple to the game in a modular way. If you don't want to install a major overhaul that adds similar things, but want some extra types of wolves in your game, you can find a mod that does it. Maybe it will be balanced well, maybe it won't, but the option's there.

That being said it's not my intention compiling these lists to provide some kind of alternative to going the route of overhauls. I just happen to be playing a vanilla game, had collected a number of these mods for myself and to include on my mod website, and decided it'd be a good idea to be real thorough about it. Sure I may not be using any overhauls myself that add similar things, but that doesn't mean the spirit of the lists is like, "screw overhauls, you can just add some new creatures and items yourself without having to change anything else!" The latter sentiment in that statement is the intention though, giving the player the option to do things one-by-one if they like. But it's not meant to imply that overhauls aren't fun, just that some people might want to add little things sometimes.

Now back to watching random clips of The Wire on YouTube for six more hours!

Ummm - well - my main point was that by crafting lists that attempt to integrate new loot (weapons and armor) and new encounters (NPCs, monsters, and creatures) you are basically heading full speed toward the domain of overhauls. Wanting all that these lists provide in a format that is balanced and coherent ... I think ... was and is the prime motivator of the overhaul mod makers.

You may not see such disparity between the creature mods but you will with the weapons and armor mods.

The argument I was attempting to make was that by introducing a new element into the existing system you change it. Attempts to make the change smooth and coherent is balancing. Just introducing content from disparate sources, I've found, leads to more imbalances.

We just disagree about how coherent the vanilla system is. I, like many others, don't think it is that sensible or balanced and so embrace overhauls and their attempts at a corrective balance. While I've certainly at times been critical of the over-reach and heavy handedness and often lack of modularity with overhauls - I do not generally think they ruin the game and I cannot think of playing without one today.

I respect your position that you want to experience vanilla leveling, scaling, balance and only want new content. I predict though that you will reach a point and that will change. I think that point is being tired of things not meshing well.

First, I apologize if I represented your position as insistent (ie. "forget all this stuff, just use overhauls"). I know it's your opinion and you're not trying to tell people what to do. I don't think I worded it that way but I don't want to make you come across like that.

I just think it's important to separate the aspects of overhauls that cover the stuff in these lists like items and creatures and the, in my opinion, more significant effects overhauls can have on the core mechanics of level-scaling. If I'm someone who wants new creatures in my game, I have two options. I can install an overhaul that adds these things but also, say, adopts a place-centric approach and eliminates creatures spawning based on the player's level. Or I can find simple mods that add the creatures I want and try those out. Obviously if I'm currently happy with the vanilla mechanics I'll take the latter option because it doesn't touch the way creatures spawn, it just adds new ones.

I'm really beating a dead horse here, but I just want to emphasize that I think these options co-exist peacefully just fine. I'm mostly responding to your [message] comment about these lists knocking on the doors of overhauls, which I think isn't really the case. It's just giving players more options. I don't really see myself as a kind of "overhaul luddite" who is trying to stick to the basic things he knows instead of adopting the more cohesive, technologically advanced contraptions. But some of your comments made me think you might see things that way.

I have no doubt that I'll get bored with the vanilla mechanics eventually and move on to overhauling things, but for now I see it as really valuable to have lists which detail all the options. And also, unlike debating the merits of vanilla level-scaling vs. other options, I think discussing these things is more than appropriate for these list threads.

But still: not a luddite! hehe

Well I for one appreciate such lists. I'm one of the rare few it seems that likes the vanilla system, more or less. I think most overhauls change too much. That's why I like MMM. My reasoning for liking the scaling is because at very high levels the creatures/npcs are still a challenge. There's hardly any challenge at all that comes before you if you have a non-scaling overhaul running. However, that's not to say I don't like non-scaling encounters period. There's times I'd like to swat away a goblin with one swing of the sword, just not nearly every single creature or NPC you meet. That's why I also use WAC to increase creature/npc diversity, and I do like some of the non-scaling leveling of some of the monsters that comes with it. I think it's a good compromise of non-scaling vs scaling with player level.

Just re-adding my two septims again, since OP is okay with this.

I'm okay with it so long as we all agree that people enjoy different things, and don't end up pages deep in some debate about why one setup is better than another, hehe.

I think I mentioned that at first I thought WAC spawned creatures scaled to the player's level. The two things that made me realize this was wrong were the unbeatable giant topless green she-demons (with melon briasts, I mean come on let's acknowledge gravity exists here, look at the water nymphs for an example of more realistic anatomy) and pixies I was able to swat away in a couple of hits. But I too am in favor of a wider range of difficulty, it's nice to take a few pixies down quickly and have to run away from melon-briasted giants sometimes, which is why I was very excited to learn MMM wasn't the place-centric no-scaling overhaul I thought it was.

At this point in my "vanilla playthrough" at level 17 I'm basically seeing how long I can go without installing MMM and all the other mods in these lists, though I couldn't help myself with WAC because of the whole forum process upping my anticipation. Probably about level 20, I'll decide I've had a good experience with the vanilla content and can let loose with new stuff. I think because I only got the game within the last year and was so blown away by the range and depth of mods available I wanted to at least give myself the opportunity to play the vanilla game and desire some mods, rather than just piling them on as soon as I started because they were available and sounded nice.

I for one love these lists. There is almost always worth looking at, and considering adding to ones game. Especially those of us not using any of the major overhaul mods, which tend to have enough of such things, and are liable to conflict with other mods of the same sort.

The great thing about the lists is as you mention the modularity of makeing changes to your game, whether be weapons and ormor or creatures. We can argue balance till the cows come home, but for a realism player, an unscaled world (like in TIE) is the most immersive. The problem comes from introducing mods that are unscaled (super monsters at level 1) with vanilla which is scaled. This is the one place that an overhaul has the advantage, it tries to balance out everything.

As an example, having installed WAC at one time in a game, an encounter (not of my own making) with one of its characters wiped out the guards and the NPC from Cyrodiil Travel Service at the IC stables. This completly ruins the game. Unless something is done so thet super monsters at low levels do not kill everyone around them, you wind up with dead bodies everywhere. Realistic maybe, but game spoiling definitely.

Adding mods like this requires some knowledge by the player as to how things will change, it is not just a matter of installation.

You're right. I'm really hesitant to install a mod if I think it's possible it may end up resulting in the deaths of NPCs.

I remember when I first set up Enhanced Daedric Invasion, I enabled the Dremora war parties as well as Daedra spawning near cities. I quickly realized this was a bad idea when one time, upon exiting Anvil, I was instantly assaulted by an angry Dremora. After I finished him off I went up the road a bit and noticed various dead NPCs. So I reloaded a save and changed EDI's settings so that it only spawned Daedra near Oblivion gates. Maybe in a future playthrough I'll take the more "realistic" approach and let them loose but for now I want NPCs to survive.

As for WAC, so far I've only come across one NPC killed due to its new creatures. It was some unessential, mostly useless NPC that manned the stables outside Bravil, but I used the console to revive him anyway because I didn't like losing an NPC even if they weren't used for anything.

But mostly I've assumed that WAC's major effect is interaction with various road travelers. I frequently encounter battles already in progress, NPCs fleeing from danger, soldiers engaging creatures and usually overpowering them. Because the only dead bodies I've come across have been bandits, I've figured WAC hasn't really made that big of an impact, though (bandits being killed by traveling adventurers and guards rather than creatures anyway).

So you've found that WAC is more dangerous than that? You mention "dead bodies everywhere" and now I'm worried that I just haven't seen the worst of what WAC's unscaled creatures can do.

I'm actually a huge fan of getting a bunch of little mods for this sort of thing rather than having a bunch of random stuff packed together in an overhaul. It makes it much easier to know what you're getting yourself into. What you're doing here makes life a lot easier for me, so please keep it up!

Once I have experience with mods on the list I'll include a note about how well they're integrated, if everything seems balanced or not, how the spawning works. I'm hoping there aren't any absurd decisions that warrant what would basically be a warning but people should probably know if they're going to be chased around by unbeatable ninja mudcrabs (? Psymon). And then some people might even want that. If anyone has experience with anything on the list feel free to share. What were the encounters like? Did your level one character get killed by a single swipe from a mudcrab? One-hit kill a building-sized were-dragon with a rusty iron sword? Hopefully it just blends in, though. I've got faith for now, we'll see after I've tried a few...

You can find my discussion of Zombie Diversity on my blog (the second link in my signature). I'll probably be doing the same with any other mods I try from your list.

While agreeing with you in principle, I wouldn't call the selection in MMM (which probably is the best known "compilation" of modded creatures) "a bunch of random stuff packed together", as the inclusions are rather carefully selected over a long period of time and not just packed together either as a lot of thought has gone into custom ingredients, faction interaction, balance etc. It's not an overhaul either BTW, but I don't know if you referenced it in particular. Also, it comes with optional no x plugins for all non-lore additions and more - so it's very customizable. In short, with MMM you don't only get modded creatures, but custom ingredients, faction AI, balanced leveledlists etc. - in short, better integration.

I'd say that if you're fine with the vanilla creatures and their behaviour on the whole but just want some, say, Zombie diversity, then it's better to go for the small Zombie diversity addition. But as soon as you want "a bunch of little mods" adding creatures, you're better off using MMM because of the above.

I did not see dead bodies everywhere, just the one instance at the IC stables. My final conclusion was that during some fight a stray hit on a friendly caused everyone to fight each other. The final winner was a WAC NPC I think from its travellers module, killed everyone with some really potent magic. After that I played around some more but removed WAC because the crossbred creatures, dinos, and the weird munchkins in a cave just did not belong in an Oblivion world, at least for me. The WAC creature experience parralled for me what the Hentai experience brings, the crazy female porm, etc.

I had a similar problem with having RBP/Lame/Integration installed. Outside Chorrol gate there is a cave. Found a named NPC I think from RBP, who chased me out, killed all the Chorrol guards, everyone at the stables and gave me chase. Luckilly the NPC from Cyrodiil Travel Service had 28 healing potions on her dead body which allowed me to survive long enough to run to Lilyvale where 6 guards were finally able to dispatch her. It is things like this that are a killer and I would consider RBP an overhaul where this should not happen at level 4.

Ha, that's pretty crazy. But yeah it seems only a few stray events like those can cause what is otherwise a pretty good mod or overhaul to become more of a nuisance than is tolerable. Since I haven't had too many problems yet I'm sticking with WAC for now, until of course I come across an entire town slaughtered by a mudcrab, or something.

I'd argue about your characterization of WAC as similar to Hentai or something. Well, you say the experience parallels it, so I don't know. Some of its creatures felt out of place, like the giant melon-briasted green she-demons I keep complaining about, but there are also plenty of "weird" creatures that might not be very lore-friendly but add to the experience for me. Everyone has different sensibilities, of course.

Well put. Words are the least effective form of communication so to each his own. Keep up on the lists, I am getting quite a bit of use from them.

Why not read the readme? Or if you did, why not just uninstall the completely optional plugin that did that? RBP was intended to provide a set of options with players picking and choosing which bits they wanted on top of a core balanced set of races. I would say that RBP is an extremely good mod, and it's also possible to tailor it to a large degree. One person's idea of what's perfect may be quite different to someone else's, and yet RBP still allows a large degree of flexibility to cover both. Anyway, your loss for missing out on these excellent mods, but I can't really let people reading this thread think that what you're describing is any kind of integral part of RBP.

Vac

Heheh I figured you were the one to suggest my mod XD

Nice list bud found some new stuff in there that I didnt know was available thx!

I feel like the majority of that is your own opinion. I disagree with MMM not being an overhaul, but I won't clutter the thread to explain my philosophy, since that seems a bit too off-topic. I call it a bunch of random stuff packed together because of your last remark in the first paragraph. It may be better integration for some, but I didn't see really see it that way. That being said, I know that too is just my own opinion. But then the only reason I mentioned my blog on this thread is because palidoo requested different people's experiences with the mods on the list. :shrug:

The specifics of a mod like MMM's "random stuff packed together" factor isn't really worth arguing in this thread, but "overhaul" actually has a specific definition, as I learned earlier in this thread. On this forum, an overhaul is a mod that changes the way level-scaling works. So MMM, which simply increases the range of difficulty of the creatures that spawn based on your level is not an overhaul, because it still uses the method of spawning based on the player character's level that the vanilla game uses, only slightly tweaked. On the other hand, something like WAC, which spawns creatures independent of the player character's level, is an overhaul because it's no longer using the vanilla method of level-scaling. Indeed there are other ways to interpret the word "overhaul" but in this forum's case it has a specific definition.

Whatever. If you call carefully selected creatures and features "a bunch of random stuff packed together" there's not much I can do about it. And if you want to call MMM an overhaul even if it isn't, there's not much I can do about it either. :shrug:

(Adding my two cents to the above argument) I do think that MMM places a heavier emphasis on ensuring the additions make sense, i.e. are lore-friendly and well-balanced, than most other mods. For example, I tried playing with both MMM and Creature Diversity recently and went back to MMM alone because I just didn't like the balance changes by Creature Diversity.

Anyway...

One potential add for this list: The Oblivion Centaur Project. I'm not sure if these count as "creatures", but they do to me!

Yeah that is right - to beat that horse - MMM integrates. Actually so do the other overhauls. Frans collected mod added creatures and attempted to integrate them while also attempting to address scaling. Same with the others.

Now to really beat those horses ... to integrate centaurs one will need (at this time) http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37357

-Basically posting that so as not to be seen as belaboring a point.

Yeah the way mod authors choose to include additional features beyond the core of the mod doesn't really need to be discussed in this thread. We can all agree that some mods come with additional sometimes questionable features that can be frustrating if the additions aren't easy to disable. And some mod authors include totally appropriate features on top of the basics of their mods. The ideal is always added features that are modular, that can be enabled or disabled through additional ESPs or an INI file. But I think it'd be a good idea to avoid those debates about MMM here, and focus on the added creatures, how they're integrated, what the balance is like, etc. With that and every other mod I'm hoping eventually the list will include those details for each one, like I mentioned before.

I've decided to give myself one more level before jumping into PHASE 2 of my epically long first playthrough; having kept everything vanilla (the balance I mean, I have a million mods for other things that don't touch balance), avoided adding any content aside from maybe Cobl and NPC clothing mods and jumping the gun on WAC, and generally tried to pretend like I was playing the game as it was meant to be played by Bethesda, I am finally going to... ADD SHiiT! So hopefully I'll have descriptions of how well a few of the mods are integrated later on this week. Not sure how practical it is to do that with items though.

Anyway, going to check out the Centaur Project stuff and hopefully centaurs will be on the list soon. I should probably do a little extra hunting; I think we've covered most of the major creature mods but I'm sure there are a few more out there that are worth it.