Help with CTDs After Installing UL, Others : IV

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:50 am

So, I've spent the past couple days adding a lot of new stuff to my game. I started with MMM and some other creatures mods, then moved on to a number of different weapons and armor expansion mods. Everything was working fine. Bash merged everything beautifully and I didn't run into any problems. So I decide to install Unique Landscapes and add to the environment as well. Prior to this I had installed ImpeREAL Unique Castles without doing any real checking up on it, just to give precise context. So along with UL I also come across http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34367, and because things had gone so well I install it too, right after manually installing all of the UL mods.

Unfortunately the 50 or so individual ESPs I had just enabled (UL, the shrines, various compatibility patches) put me over the mod limit, which I realized when opening Bash and finding out it had to disable a number of mods at the end of my load order. So intending to merge a bunch of loose mods into my bashed patch in order to free up slots for UL and the other mods, I back up my then current load order and bashed patch. I then go ahead with merging, free up enough spots, and am ready to go.

Unfortunately, when I load a game I can't venture very far before I get a CTD. Cities, wilderness, it appears every time it needs to load more resources, perhaps, it crashes.

What followed was a few hours of all kind of tricks to eliminate the problem. I installed UL as an omod, I disabled the Unique Castles from earlier, then finally I disabled UL and the shrines and went back to my saved load order and backup bashed patch.

And it still crashes. Even with the configuration I was using when everything was working. Every save I load, as long as I'm not inside a building all I have to do is walk a little bit and it crashes.

I have no idea what's going on. My game's been unstable before, but never like this, and it's been particularly good lately after installing all kinds of new creatures and weapons and armor, which has been nice. But apparently I pushed my luck and now it's broken.

Does this ring a bell for anyone? Any idea what the hell is going on that would cause my game to crash constantly, and then continue to do so even after reverting to an earlier load order and bashed patch? All I can figure is that some of the resources from either UL or the Daedric shrine mods have somehow poisoned my install.

My load order:

Spoiler

? 00 Oblivion.esm

? 01 ScreenEffects.esm

? 02 Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esm

? 03 TamrielTravellers.esm [Version 1.39c]

? 04 IWRRetrofittedMaster.esm

? 05 A_Bloody_Mess.esm

? 06 StarX Vampire Deaths.esm

? 07 Waalx Animals & Creatures.esm

? 08 Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esm

? 09 Qarls_Harvest.esm

? 0A All Natural Base.esm [Version 1.2.1]

? 0B ShieldOnBack.esm [Version 2.4]

? 0C Cobl Main.esm [Version 1.72]

? 0D Hemingweys Capes Improved.esm [Version 3.0b]

? 0E Mart's Monster Mod.esm [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 0F VASE - core.esm

? 10 Armamentarium.esm [Version 1.35]

? 11 Artifacts.esm [Version 1.1]

? 12 John's Leveled List Overhaul.esm

? 13 The Arsenal.esm

? 14 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp [Version 3.3.3]

? 15 DLCShiveringIsles.esp

? 16 Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp [Version 1.4.0]

? 17 Knights.esp

? 18 Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.1]

? 19 DLCHorseArmor.esp

? 1A DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.6]

? 1B DLCOrrery.esp

? 1C DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.4]

? 1D DLCFrostcrag.esp

? 1E DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.5]

? 1F DLCThievesDen.esp

? 20 DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp [Version 1.0.4]

? 21 DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.7]

? 22 DLCVileLair.esp

? 23 DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.6]

? 24 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp

? 25 DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.5]

? 26 DLCBattlehornCastle.esp

? 27 DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.5]

? 28 DLCSpellTomes.esp

? 29 DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.1]

? 2A Cobl Glue.esp [Version 1.72]

? 2B Cobl Si.esp [Version 1.63]

? ++ Cobl Tweaks.esp [Version 1.44]

? 2C Global Chest 20 Portals Ayleid.esp

? 2D All Natural.esp [Version 1.2]

? 2E All Natural - SI.esp [Version 1.2.1]

? 2F Immersive Interiors.esp [Version 0.7]

? 30 Immersive Interiors - Lights Addon.esp [Version 0.7]

? ? ? Cava Obscura - Cyrodiil.esp

? ? ? Cava Obscura - SI.esp

? ? ? Cava Obscura - Filter Patch For Mods.esp

? 31 RAEVWD New Sheoth.esp [Version 1.5]

? 32 YetAnotherHotkeyMod.esp

? 33 VanityCameraSmoother.esp

? 34 ChaseCameraMod.esp

? 35 FlyingCameraMod.esp [Version 1.3]

? 36 SDCrystalBallLamps.esp

? 37 Guiding Beacons.esp

? 38 Gamluvrs_Magic_Lanterns.esp

? 39 P1DanywhereSittable.esp

? 3A ImmersiveWait.esp

? 3B DropLitTorchOBSE.esp [Version 2.4]

? 3C Map Marker Overhaul.esp [Version 3.8]

? 3D Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp [Version 3.5]

? 3E Dynamic Map.esp [Version 1.0.1]

? 3F Xero's Fame Indicator.esp

? 40 Display Stats.esp [Version 1.3.1]

? 41 MiniMap.esp

? 42 Spell Delete.esp

? 43 P1DkeyChain.esp [Version 5.00]

? 44 fwDropGold.esp

? 45 Toggleable Quantity Prompt.esp [Version 3.2.0]

? 46 Enhanced Water v2.0 HD.esp

? 47 Real Lava 1.3.esp

? 48 BNewShockBoltEffects20.esp [Version 1.2]

? 49 New Frost Damage cloud2.esp

? 4A MIS.esp

? 4B MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp

? 4C Atmospheric Oblivion.esp

? 4D AgarMoreVariedSpellEffects.esp

? 4E Distant Chapel Bells.esp

? 4F Musical Immersion 1.0.esp

? 50 MIS Low Wind.esp

? 51 Symphony of Violence.esp

? 52 ln.esp

? 53 All Natural - Real Lights.esp [Version 1.2.1]

? 54 Dungeon Actors Have Torches 1.6 DT.esp

? 55 Exterior Actors Have Torches 1.3 DT.esp

? 56 Book Jackets Oblivion.esp

? 57 Book Jackets DLC.esp

? 58 Knights - Book Jackets.esp

? 59 GrimbotsSpellTomes.esp

? 5A Harvest [Flora].esp [Version 3.0.0]

? 5B Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.0.0]

? 5C Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp [Version 3.0.0]

? 5D Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp [Version 3.0.0]

? 5E Qarls_Harvest.esp

? 5F Qarls_Harvest addon.esp

? 60 More_Vegetables.esp

? 61 Leviathan Soulgems.esp

? 62 Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp

? 63 Alluring Wine Bottles.esp

? 64 upperGothicClutter.esp

? 65 ImprovedSigns.esp

? 66 mz_Shields.esp

? 67 Garak's Staff Replacer Fire&Ice.esp [Version 1.5]

? 68 Garak's Staff Replacer Blood&Lightning.esp

? 69 FarmersStrikeBack.esp

? 6A CT-Com's Torch Compendium.esp

? 6B Clutter Weapons.esp

? 6C WoTLightstick.esp

? 6D what.esp

? 6E SlimeDoll_v1.0.esp

? 6F equipablestuff.esp

? 70 fishclub.esp

? 71 IRaimFunnyItem.esp

? 72 JustABox.esp

? 73 Unlimited Wear.esp

? 74 ShowHideAmulet.esp

? 75 TTB.esp

? 76 JQ&DM-ScriptedBackpacks.esp

? 77 1HweaponOnBack.esp [Version 1.0]

? 78 qazFingerSnap.esp

? 79 MotionReplacer.esp

? 7A Slof's Manly Stride.esp

? 7B RealisticForceHigh.esp

? 7C StarX Vampire Deaths.esp

? 7D Mounted_Spellcasting.esp

? 7E ClocksOfCyrodiil.esp

? 7F The Imperial Water.esp

? 80 Anvil_MorningGlory_Mixed.esp

? 81 Wayshrines Improved.esp

? 82 HouseFires.esp

? 83 IWRRetrofittedLights.esp

? 84 PONLights.esp

? 85 Natural_Vegetation_by_Max_Tael.esp

? 86 dist_trees_x1_5.esp

? 87 SwampGrass.esp

? 88 diversegrasses.esp

? 89 WAC.esp

? 8A WAC - Birds&Insects.esp

? ? ? WAC - TCOS.esp

? ? ? WAC - TCOS Shops.esp [Version 03]

? 8B Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp

? 8C Slof's Dogs.esp

? 8D PTFallingStars.esp

? 8E Rainbows.esp

? 8F PTAutumnTrees.esp

? 90 Life Detected - Skeleton - Medium - 1.esp

? 91 Shining Creatures.esp

? 92 Shining Creatures_DLCFrostcrag.esp

? 93 Give Me My Shader Effects.esp

? 94 [GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp

? 95 A Bloody Mess - Bloody Fights.esp

? 96 BubbleFx.esp

? 97 [Hexaae] Get Wet v0.92.esp [Version 0.92]

? 98 Mart's Monster Mod.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 99 Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9A Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9B Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9C Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9D Mart's Monster Mod - Resized Races.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9E Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? 9F Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A0 Mart's Monster Mod - Knights.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A1 Mart's Monster Mod - No Bone Loot.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A2 Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A3 Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A4 Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A5 Water Nymphs.esp

? A6 Mud Crabs!_MMM.esp

? A7 VASE - Cyrodiil for MMM.esp

? A8 VASE - Vanilla SI.esp

? A9 Oblivion Graphics Extender Support.esp [Version 0.42]

? AA ScreenControls.esp

? AB unnatural_aura_by_trollf.esp

? AC P1DlookHereYou.esp

? AD talkwithyourhands2.esp

? AE ArmamentariumLL.esp [Version 1.35]

? AF ArmamentariumLLMagic.esp [Version 1.35]

? B0 ArmamentariumLLArmaVendor.esp [Version 1.35]

? B1 ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp [Version 1.35]

? B2 Artifacts.esp [Version 1.1]

? B3 Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp [Version 1.0]

? B4 John's Leveled List Overhaul.esp

? B5 John's Leveled List Overhaul - Vanilla Weapons.esp

? B6 John's Leveled List Overhaul - Vanilla Armours.esp

? B7 John's Leveled List Overhaul - Cyrodillic Armors.esp

? B8 The Arsenal.esp

? B9 The Arsenal - Leveled Lists.esp

? BA Weapon Expansion Pack for Oblivion Nthusiasts.esp [Version 1]

? BB Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp

? BC AyleidMeteorIronWeaponsVANILLA.esp

? BD Adonnays Classical Weaponry.esp

? BE Adonnays Elven Weaponry for NPCs.esp

? BF Adonnays Elven Weaponry for NPCs - Armamentarium piggyback.esp

? C0 Shields Of Antiquity.esp

? C1 Loth's Blunt Weapons.esp

? C2 Loth's Blunt Weapons for Npcs.esp

? C3 phinix_dual-wield_imports.esp

? C4 Goblin Realswords+Tribal Shields.esp

? C5 Mage Equipment.esp

? C6 Ayleid Loot EXtension.esp

? C7 PTArtifacts.esp

? C8 road+bridges.esp [Version 4.6]

? C9 ImpeREAL Empire - Unique Forts.esp

? CA 24HrArenaAliveV2.esp

? ? ? NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp

? CB TamrielTravellers.esp [Version 1.39c]

? CC ShiveringIsleTravellers.esp [Version 1.39c]

? CD TamrielTravellersItemsVendor.esp [Version 1.39c]

? CE Crowded Roads Revisited.esp [Version 1.1]

? CF Crowded Roads Revisited_ChorrolCheydinhal_5.esp

? D0 Crowded Roads Revisited_GoldRoad_5.esp

? D1 Crowded Roads Revisited_GreenRoad_5.esp

? D2 Crowded Roads Revisited_YellowRoad_5.esp

? D3 PTRoamingNPCs.esp

? D4 Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esp

? D5 VOILA.esp

? D6 VOILA - Soldiers of Empire.esp

? D7 Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp [Version 3.08]

? D8 Atmospheric Loading Screens - Original Text.esp

? D9 ClassyClothingCompendium.esp [Version 1.2]

? ++ Item interchange - Extraction.esp [Version 0.78]

? ? ? Hemingweys Capes Improved.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DA Hemingweys Capes Improved Merchants.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DB Hemingweys VAN NPC Capes Improved IC Guards.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DC Hemingweys VAN NPC Capes Improved Regional City Guards.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DD Hemingweys VAN NPC Capes Improved Legion Forester.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DE Hemingweys Capes for EDI.esp [Version 3.0b]

? DF Hemingweys VAN NPC Capes Improved Enemies.esp [Version 3.0b]

? E0 Hemingweys VAN Boss Chest Cape Loot.esp [Version 3.0b]

? E1 NPC new clothes V2.6 Modified.esp

? E2 Better Redguard v2.esp

? ? ? TNR ALL RACES FINAL.esp

? ? ? TNR - ShiveringIsles.esp

? E3 CNRP Cheydinhal.esp [Version 1.0]

? E4 CNRP FightersGuild.esp [Version 1.0]

? E5 CNRP Chorrol.esp [Version 1.1]

? E6 CNRP DB.esp [Version 1.0]

? E7 CNRP Brumav02.esp [Version 0.2]

? ++ Item interchange - Placement.esp [Version 0.78]

? ++ Item interchange - Placement for Frostcrag.esp [Version 0.78]

? ++ Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp [Version 1.53]

? ? ? All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp [Version 1.2]

? E8 Bashed Patch, 0.esp

? E9 CSC RM CW EL.esp

? EA Diverse Effect Icons.esp

? EB lumi_enchantments_subtle.esp

? EC WindowLightingSystem.esp

EDIT: Fixed, thanks to the post below making me aware of the Data folder file limit.

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:55 am

Some suggestions:

* Update StarX's Vampire Deaths to http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27421. It no longer requires the esm (approved and recommended by StarX). Saved a slot!

* If you ran TES4LODGen after installing the UL's, run it again.

* Remember the Data folder has a limit too. Remove any esp/esm/bsa's not being used any more.

* Load up your save, immediately coc testinghall, and wait out a spawn period (usually 3 days).

* Why is AWLS behind your bashed patch? BOSS certainly doesn't put it there. You do use BOSS, right? Some things look slightly out of order.

* What did you merge that wasn't merged before?

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:37 am

Some suggestions:

* Update StarX's Vampire Deaths to http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27421. It no longer requires the esm (approved and recommended by StarX). Saved a slot!

* If you ran TES4LODGen after installing the UL's, run it again.

* Remember the Data folder has a limit too. Remove any esp/esm/bsa's not being used any more.

* Load up your save, immediately coc testinghall, and wait out a spawn period (usually 3 days).

* Why is AWLS behind your bashed patch? BOSS certainly doesn't put it there. You do use BOSS, right? Some things look slightly out of order.

* What did you merge that wasn't merged before?

Thanks for the suggestions. I had never heard that before about the Data folder having a limit, so I deleted a bunch of unused stuff, and loaded a save and it didn't crash! Assuming that was the problem, thank you so much for suggesting it because I never would have thought of that. Can you or anyone else explain further why it's like this? And can it be any file or just esp/esm/bsa files that add to reaching the limit?

AWLS is behind my bashed patch because that's where it put itself when I loaded it as an omod, heh. I don't use BOSS because I like organizing things a certain way and haven't run into problems with it yet, though I do need to move that particular esp.

I only merged things that were listed under the merge patches section when rebuilding by bashed patch, but since I reverted back to my original setup I don't think that was the issue, though I definitely suspected that I had merged something "bad" at one point.

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:18 am

Let BOSS sort your load order, only manually reposition those it lists as unknown.

Only ESMs, ESPs and BSAs are counted when it comes to the limit on files which can exist in the Data folder before the game gets screwy (and beyond a certain number causes the game to fail to even start). The limit is somewhere around 360 or so, I once found out the exact number about two years ago, but I forget now. Anyway it's somewhere between 300 and 400, and is part of the reason why the ghosting feature was added to Wrye Bash.

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:04 am

Use the ghosting feature of Wrye Bash to avoid data trashing when the BSA+ESM+ESP files go over 400.

:ninja: Ninja'ed by Vorians! :tongue: :ph34r:

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:17 am

And if you're curious, the http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/Oblivion.exe_file_and_directory_thrashing of the problem.

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:22 am

I can't remember the exact number, but I had over 400 files, probably nearly 500, based on the "Mods: x / x" in the lower right in Bash. I just tried reconfiguring everything after deleting a bunch of stuff, the number currently sits at 251 / 383, and I'm going to see if it works like this. I might finally get to see some of those Unique Landscapes looool. If it crashes again I'll just get my ghost on I guess.

Thanks for the help with this, I'm actually surprised I never heard about this particular file limit before. However I'm not surprised Oblivion would have such a weird issue, ha.

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:03 am

? 69 FarmersStrikeBack.esp

? 73 Unlimited Wear.esp
? 74 ShowHideAmulet.esp

? 9C Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]

? A6 Mud Crabs!_MMM.esp

Let cut down your mods some

FarmersStrikeBack is already intergrated into ArmamentariumComplete

Unlimited Wear (if that is for Unlimited Rings , Bash Patch has a option to do this)
ShowHideAmulet (Bash Patch Option to make amulet show)

Update MMM Diverse Waterlife to version posted in MMM thread post 3

Remove Mud Crabs!_MMM.esp that is already intergrated into MMM has well...

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:02 pm

Let cut down your mods some

FarmersStrikeBack is already intergrated into ArmamentariumComplete

Unlimited Wear (if that is for Unlimited Rings , Bash Patch has a option to do this)
ShowHideAmulet (Bash Patch Option to make amulet show)

Update MMM Diverse Waterlife to version posted in MMM thread post 3

Remove Mud Crabs!_MMM.esp that is already intergrated into MMM has well...

Thanks. I wasn't aware of those mods being integrated, and I'll check out the MMM thread. As for the others:

Unlimited Wear lets you assign a different slot to an item (or no slot, thus you can wear unlimited amulets or whatever if you want). I'm using it so I can use an amulet slot backpack or cape while still being able to wear an amulet (which isn't visible). Similar to Bash's functionality but you can do it item by item in-game.

ShowHideAmulet lets you toggle in-game, so it's more versatile than just using an option to show amulets. Actually I ended up using it because it was the only mod of its type that was able to make something viewable, I can't remember what exactly, even Bash's option wasn't helpful in that case I believe. I haven't used the mod lately though, I can probably disable it.

Now that I think about it maybe those two mods were the only way I could get a backpack to show up under certain circumstances. Still can't rememeber the exact details but Bash's similar options didn't solve the issue 100%.

Anyway, thanks. I need to cut down as much as possible, since it looks like I'm going to be perpetually running out of space, haha.

Oh, yeah--I tried my game, and aside from a very sad framerate, everything seems to be working. No crashes, except for the usual crash on exit. Can't believe I spent hours trying to fix the crashing issue and it was something so dumb I never would have guessed.

EDIT: Something I'm curious about--I used TES4Gecko to merge the UL ESPs and the Better Daedric Shrine ESPs to save spots in my load order. I excluded ESPs that produced a conflict/error while merging, and I also excluded ESPs from the merged files that are masters for some of the compatibility patches. So I have ULMerged.esp and ShrinesMerged.esp files along with the individual ESPs for each I excluded (about 8 of the UL ones and 6 of the shrine ones). Should I run into any problems? Is it a bad idea to merge things with TES4Gecko in that manner, even if there are no errors/conflicts?

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:24 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I had never heard that before about the Data folder having a limit, so I deleted a bunch of unused stuff, and loaded a save and it didn't crash! Assuming that was the problem, thank you so much for suggesting it because I never would have thought of that. Can you or anyone else explain further why it's like this? And can it be any file or just esp/esm/bsa files that add to reaching the limit?

I only recently read on this as well. Knowing this would of saved me some HUGE headaches over the last 4 years of modding this blasted game!
What would it take to get topics like the one created for the Data Folder File Limit stickied? Some topics really need to be front and center. Large Address Aware would be another one. This stuff really should be common knowledge by now, and it's a shame that some of us happen to miss out on some extremely important info simply because the topic got buried under a billion FCOM topics and CTD topics. (No offense to the FCOM team)

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:32 am

That's what the wikis are for. It looks as though the Nexus wiki would be a good place to house things like that on a more permanent basis. The memory usage thread really should be there for one since it covers loads of good info on LAA and memory usage by the game in general.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:31 pm

I'm contemplating including an extensive tips and troubleshooting section on my mod website, but there's probably too much to cover that's been covered well elsewhere so I doubt I'll launch it with much beyond basic mod management tips. Also it would probably add to the infinite difficulty I have coming up with a name for the site. Oblivion Ecstacy, anyone?

Repeating since this thread is kind of pointless now but I'm still curious about some things:
I used TES4Gecko to merge the UL ESPs and the Better Daedric Shrine ESPs to save spots in my load order. I excluded ESPs that produced a conflict/error while merging, and I also excluded ESPs from the merged files that are masters for some of the compatibility patches. So I have ULMerged.esp and ShrinesMerged.esp files along with the individual ESPs for each I excluded (about 8 of the UL ones and 6 of the shrine ones). Should I run into any problems? Is it a bad idea to merge things with TES4Gecko in that manner, even if there are no errors/conflicts?

Also, I did a run from Leyawiin to Bravil without any crashes, but I came across quite a few travelers and various enemy NPCs as well as a few creatures that were standing in place oblivious. I've raised the actor AI to 40 in Bash (which it says is the MMM default, so maybe it's redundant since I already have MMM) so I figured I wouldn't come across braindead NPCs/creatures, at least not as many as I saw on that run. Are there issues beyond the active AI limit that would cause NPCs and creatures to be braindead? I recall reading at some point that OSR's messing with the passage of time can have an effect like this, I'm not sure though.

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:03 pm

Tomlong already has many of these topics covered on her http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/. Now that is a website that should be stickied, especially for noobs old (yours truly) and new.

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:34 pm

Hmm, http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/tunesetup/merging says not to merge UL mods together. One of the reasons is because of patches depending on indivudal ESPs, which I accounted for, but it doesn't really say why it's bad otherwise aside from advising against merging mods that modify cells or worldspaces. That doesn't sound good for my Better Daedric Shrine merge either. I guess I'll keep using my two-thirds-of-UL-merged and half-of-better-shrines-merged ESPs until I encounter some kind of problem(s) though, unless anyone can explain specifically why merging those might be bad.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:05 pm

The ULs are too entrenched with patches relying on form IDs being stable to allow us to support it when people run into trouble. You're certainly free to ignore the advice we've repeatedly given about that but at this point I figure if you're advanced enough to know how to merge and prepared to deal with the risks, you should also be advanced enough to fly solo to resolve anything that might come up.

One big disadvantage besides the form ID issues is with load order. If for some reason a mod comes along that has to load in between a pair of ULs to keep working, your merge of the ULs cannot adapt to that.

The next huge disadvantage are the growing number of OBSE mods relying on the stability of mod names to use with such wondrous functions as IsModLoaded. Ayleid Steps is a big one for that. It checks for expected UL names and moves around some of the teleporter steps to adjust for it. That won't happen if you've merged them all, and Ayleid Steps is large enough to span most of the ULs.

If that's something you can put up with and write your own patches for, more power to you.

As for the Better Daedric Shrines mod, barely anything will conflict with those and it's probably relatively safe to merge them. I did, though I haven't yet activated it in my load order. I don't think there are any patches (yet) that depend on those names remaining in place.

Also keep in mind that the cons I mention apply to any mod, not just to the ULs or the shrines mod. For instance you may start running into problems should you decide to merge all my villages together into one pack.

Merging isn't a magic bullet and can cause more trouble than it solves. It wasn't designed to do what many of us are using it for.

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Many thanks for describing the issues with merging mods. I'll certainly go back to the individual ESPs should I encounter any problems and definitely don't expect anyone to help troubleshoot a merged file anyway, heh. I'm interested in trying Ayleid Steps one day, but that's pretty far off, and the same applies to other quest mods or expansions that might cover ground used by UL.

But now you've reminded me I want to try out your villages, which means I have to figure out how to make some more space in my load order! Maybe. Actually I don't have anything except for like Item Interchange and Cava Obscura merged into my bashed patch so I actually have a bunch of headroom. Hmm.

Having just installed a massive amount of items and creatures, along with UL and plans to finally head to SI, I think maybe your villages will be the only thing I install soon. I'm at the point where the only types of mods remaining to add to my game are new locations and quests, things I've completely avoided thus far. I can trust your work is top notch so I'll install that, but I've still got so much left to do with what I already have it'd be kind of silly to look for new locations and quests any time soon.

So since I'm not planning on adding many new mods for a while I'm going to hope everything goes okay with my UL merge. I'm sure in a week I'll have some nagging desire to try out Ayleid Steps, though. It's just how I work.

Also contemplating your villages has me thinking about my farming infrastructure mod idea (wagons carrying goods from farms to cities and villages), I think I'll move it up somewhere between the Forts + Daedric Invasion mod idea and the Lights for AWLS mod idea in the "mods I plan to try to make one day but will probably never complete" list (at least the AWLS idea is kind of irrelevant since I discovered IW works with AWLS. Hmm, maybe back to the IW for SI idea then...)

EDIT: I'm totally going to try merging your villages, excluding Feldscar (I just redid my UL merge to remove Snowdale so its esp is available for the compatibility patch). And I'm totally going to stay silent if anything goes wrong. Though I may let you know at some point in the future if everything ends up happy and works fine. Doing what I've been advised not to: unavoidable! Of course TES4Gecko could give me some errors upon merging in which case I'll trash the whole idea.