Just read that, it explains it well http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/naturenurture.html

Bethesda decided to greatly reduce the impact of the Nature part of their game system for their own reasons, that's how it is and the end result will not be a bad game because of that. It's a different vision of the world that's all.

Lol i thought it said nature vs. nature as in beasties fighting each other

Also the fact they replaced the attributes with a deeper and more fleshed out system also keeps it from being bad.

I agree with that observation.
The nature vs nurture concept is quite obsolete, though, and that's why I don't like the removal of attributes.

What is more important to make a sailing boat go - the wind or the sea?

You - whoever is reading this - you possess "attributes." You have a particular, and at least roughly quantifiable amount of strength, endurance, intelligence, speed, agility, etc. These are not figments of the imagination that Beth just arbitrarily stuck in a game and can just as arbitrarily remove - they're representations of real, measureable, defined qualities that you - whoever is reading this - simply by dint of existing, possess.

To think that a thing that fundamental - a thing that every being possesses simply by dint of existing - can and should be blithely ignored is ridiculous.

And let's cut straight to the heart of the matter here - past all the Beth PR swill - attributes aren't being removed because they have a negative impact on the game. They're being removed because removing them is easier than balancing them with the wholly artificial "perks."

Not at all. If there's something that stands up about TES much more than many other RPGs games is the principle of you improve in what you use. It means that one of the major defining point in TES series since Daggerfall is that the player does stuff (linked to a skill) which in turns improves the player so that he can now do that stuff better. IE, since Daggerfall the most original feature of the TES RPG system was that the Nurture part was heavily predominant compared to the Nature part.


Cutting attributes was the logical conclusion of the saga.

Blank slate, we learn everything through our experience.

Bethesda removing attributes to teach us all a lesson in Phycology 101, eh?

Cutting everything that isn't unique to a game series is a logical conclusion?
Please, just do one little thought experiment for yourself and see where this takes you.




I don't know what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phycology have to do with this, but as someone whose Psychology 101 was quite some time ago, I can assure you that we are not blank slates.
This is even more true for our characters in an RPG which we don't start out of the womb.

whoever said that removing attributes is automatically a bad idea is pretty close minded IMO. I think it is a very logical move. We, as a species, just unjustifiably cling to the things we know and love...

The thing is, where do you stop the simplification of games? That is the trend now, make the game so easy anyone with half a braincell can play it. Every release form Bethesda it has gotten worse and worse.

The end result of this is pretty(with lots of bloom) Atari 2600 games. Where you have one button that does everything as you wonder around a space. That literally is where the gaming industry, and RPG's in general seem to be heading.

I took Psych(5 AM and you call me on a typo!?) this time last year. I definitely believe we are all born with a blank slate and our upbringing defines us. Nurture ftw.

This has nothing to do with nature vs nurture. That article is presumably referencing RPGs such as D&D where attributes are largely fixed at character creation.

The TES attribute system has always been unusual (and rather elegant I think) in that attributes rose in proportion to your use of their associated skills so it still fell under the nurture category for the most part. The only aspects that were nature related depended on race, class and birthsign. We already knew that classes were being removed, we still don't know what effect races will have and birthsigns didn't necessarily affect attributes anyway.

That's not to say the new system won't work but I think the motivation behind it is more about creating a child-proof system in which character development is determined simply by choices at level up rather than your character's actions.

They're not entirely gone. Each race will have it's own benefits. You just can't shoot a bunch of fireballs and say "hey, now I'm more intelligent!" anymore.

I don't know if any of you guys have played the old RPGs like Baldur's Gate or whatever, but you couldn't change your attributes during the game (well, okay in that particular game you could find books that gave you a point). In fact, you couldn't really change anything other than adding new spells to your spellbook, or adding a point in your weapon skills (warrior) or thieving abilities (thief) every so often (or other skills, depending on the game). It's not like what attributes did are gone - they're just moved. It seems Bethesda is like "Okay, here's your character, play however you want, don't worry about multipliers and stuff, just do whatever and you'll get better at it." Orcs aren't awesome mages at birth - they'll have to work harder at it than a breton would. Khajiits are natural thieves - they'll have an easier time than a nord in that area.

Maybe I'm biased. I like perks and I think attributes are stupid. You can't change what you were born with! You can only improve your abilities. In the example on that webpage - Speed and Running - I'm never going to be naturally as fast as someone from Kenya (yay for stereotyping!), but I can go out every morning and go for a run and become better at it. My only real complaint here is that we don't have some kind of a dodging skill which I think would really benefit the system.

Also, as someone who is an anthro major, I can attest to the fact that aside from some genetic advantages/disadvantages, we are essentially blank slates at birth. How you are raised, how much nutrition you receive during your childhood, etc. all factor into how you develop into an advlt. You take a baby from the suburbs of middle America and have him grow up in Mongolia and he's going to resemble Mongolians. You take a baby from Mongolia and have him grow up in the suburbs of middle America and he's going to resemble midwesterners. Both in mind and in body (let's be optimistic and assume both sets of parents instill values of confidence, another aspect of "nurture", to lessen any prejudices). Of course, maybe the kid from Mongolia is more artistic and the kid from America is naturally skilled in mathematics, which will certainly carry over. On the other hand, if the Mongolian is taught to focus on math by his parents and school, and the American is taught to focus on art (maybe his parents are prolific artists or something), these inborn "abilities" would not be realized. They may never be realized - maybe the Mongolian becomes a great math professor and the American become a famous artist.

Anyways, I'm rambling. The fact is that in the elder scrolls attributes are basically modifiers that steer you towards "gaming" the system. You can directly add points to your health/stamina/magic now (what do you know - something that was added!! we haven't been able to do this since battlespire). You can choose perks (hey... something else that was added!) which are modifiers that don't steer you towards "gaming" the system. We lose a pointless and outdated system and gain the ability to directly affect our h/s/m and get specialized perks? And this is considered dumbing down and a net loss?

Why do you think so?

Character development is only determined by your characters actions. What you do determines what skills raise and what perks you get.

In the old system a huge chunk of your character development was determined by choices at level up - specifically, what multipliers you got and what attributes you chose to place those points in.

I'm confused by your statement.

I just tried to lighten the mood. And hey, I learned what phycology means!
But if someone asked me about my opinion, I think nature vs nurture is an obsolote discussion because one cannot exist without the other.



That's a reasonable concern. It all comes down to how powerful the perks will be, and it could be a very delicate balance between useless and game-driving.
If perks are too important, I can already see them removing all skills from TES VI because "why not get the perk directly? skills seemed kind of redundant."
If perks are too weak, the game will certainly feel dumbed down because the perks can't make up for lost features.

I find it dangerous to put a single new feature in the center of the system; when it breaks, the whole system goes kaput.

Well done: a good sensible argument that I agree with.

Hmm, I think one of us has misunderstood the new system. I thought the perks were something you chose at level up but you seem to be saying that you automatically receive perks depending on your skills.

In a way I hope I am the one who is wrong

I did not say that.

I said what you do determines what perks you get. If you work on swords, when you level up you will be able to receive sword perks.

Ok, you need to see games not as math problems, but forms of entertainement first.
And besides, if anything, look at the melee combat system. It's got more complete over the years. In MW you just mashed the attack button until you were lucky (oh you SO felt intellingent for it). In Oblivion, at least in the early levels, you had to make up some strategy and take advantage of enemy staggers and manage your defense as best as you can. From what we've heard Skyrim will push this even further.

And yeah of course, pressing one button to win... MW: Attack button used in combat OB: Attack and Block button used in combat, can be combined with magic too. SK: separate management or left ad right hand equipement, have to adapt to situation

I know I'm talking a lot about the combat system, but that's pretty much how you know if a game gets simpler. Anyone who plays an RPG only to level definitely has no idea wtf they're doing. TES is a world, not a stats screen. We'll know they "dumbed down" the game when all there will be is one dungeon, one quest, and only one set of weapons.

Besides, I think you're thinking RPG means ROLL-playing game. It's not. Yahtzee is a ROLL-playing-game (and oh god does it take brains huh?). Seriously, I don't think any system that forces you to ONE tactic is complex, you know?

Also, who the hell wants to feel more like raising numbers and less like being out on an adventure?.

As much as I know, it's a fact that we are NOT a blank slate. Upbringing counts, of course, but so do genetics. No matter how much I study, I won't ever be so clever as Stephen Hawking.

Atributtes depending on the race would be alright, anyway. That would be simplier than reality, but... what is not simplier in a game?

Just give me atributtes, in some way or another...

You went off on a bit of a tangent there:)

A role in a RPG is based on stats. It is what you are in the game world. Unlike what the current public school system, or your parents tell you, not everyone can grow up to be what they want to be. We all have talents and skills, and there are things each of us is better suited to do.

Stats in an RPG represent those real world factors within reason. In most fantasy games/settings there was a reason if you were good with magic, you could not use a sword or wear heavy armor. As being a mage took a lot of time studying and learning, time that a warrior spent training and improving their physical condition.

In the Elder scroll games up to this point, it was pretty well expressed in game this concept. You picked basically what you wanted, and then through practice you became better at those things. But to get the most out of things you have to make sure you were maxing out your modifier for that level, so yes you could go stand in a corner for an hour casting a spell and you would level up. But you would neuter your character before long doing so. What you picked, and how those things affected your various actions in the game... well that's pretty much the point of even having a character you customize. Otherwise why not be like Zelda and everyone has the same link to play with?

This new system, you are going to be rewarded for standing in a corner leveling up that spell school 10 times. You don't have to worry if it will harm you in the long run, as you literally can;t mess it up. You no longer pick what skills you focus on. Every character in the end will be close to the same. There will no longer be any customization. No real value for a replay as everyone in the end will end up the same character. Perks sounds more like a MMO skill tree to me then anything. So we traded a unique character system, for the cookie cutter mmo style of everyone is the same. At least in MMO's the gear varies widely and that makes a difference.

As for your comparisons, combat? Really, who plays the elder scrolls for the combat. And even saying that, I do still prefer morrowinds over oblivion's combat, never missing seems wrong.

Please tell me you are describing Oblivion right now.


Assuming people still equal MMO with WoW (and many others would fit the bill here), the talent tree build would define a player a LOT MORE than the gear on their backs which would only describe it's power rating more or less. Talent choice would define skill list, play style and we talk about HUGE difference in play styles for a same class that focuses on different talent trees, like a cleric that can either heal or do damage.

No.

Oblivion had some of that as well, no lie. And it was one of the reasons I hated it. But it was not as pronounced, and after you maxed your 7 prime skills you stopped leveling and really were frozen at that level of power. With the new system you level until all 18 are at 100. Meaning in oblivion if you didn't max your attribs, or tag the right skills your going to be in trouble. Skyrim system you will be a god no matter what you do, it is idiotproof.




In theory that is true, however in every major MMO each skill tree has it's "Best case" or cookie cutter build. You will find a shocking number of people with that same build. Skyrim will be no different. there will be guides to the best build and that is what most people will use. In MMO's today skill is not in the build, but understanding of mechanics, numbers behind the game, and frankly rotation. Gear makes a huge difference as well. You can have the best rotation in the world, but if your in dungeon gear the raid guy is still going to beat you:)

You have a point as far as skills are concerned. The perks are supposed to make all the difference.

Really, at this point, perks are supposed to fix everything.
Maybe I should call my character Perk.
He's going to save Skyrim after all!