luck


useless


wtf?

luck is awesome 100 luck in morrowind=i win.

I can just see it now.. a skeletal mage wandering around with a greatfull dead fannypack....

I find it interesting how some people don't like attributes because they generalize characters too much, yet they think stamina should replace all functions that attributes had.
By dumbing it down to 3 "attributes" we get even more generalized characters.

I can mod "in perks" now in Fallout 3 and New Vegas (which I do, rather extensively in my Realism Tweaks), but I also alter attributes in my scripts in ways that are not possible with just perks. Plus I use conditional statements in my perk changes that rely on the player's attribute level.

As I wrote earlier in this thread: We've lost an entire dimension of our character build . . . and in our ability to script game play changes.
The more that is removed ("simplified"), the less unique your initial character build becomes . . . and the less your decisions will have any real consequence.

Adding Perks, and faster leveling does NOT make up for that loss.

The key phrase in there is 'they think it should'
That doesn't mean it will nor do I think it should.
I'm thinking race will play a factor in determining movement speed and encumbrance, not sure how they would change though. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Edit:
@arwen
I don't see how some numbers on the stat screen make my characters unique, I get unique characters from gameplay and perks deliver that by giving me everything attributes can do and also abilities that attributes would have to deliver to every character that got whatever level would unlock it (assuming attribute could behave like perks). How is that more unique?
Sure you may sacrifice one dimension of your character in that they are less unique in the beginning but gain 10 dimensions in what they become is so much more unique than attributes could ever allow, and if you ask most people I daresay what their character becomes is more important than how it starts out.
Also characters can be completely different even using the same skills because there are different perks you can choose or you can pick a higher tier of a perk. So choosing a different perk makes for a different character, I would call that a consequence of your decision.. Do attributes allow such flexibility let's see.... Nope every character that uses the same skills always gets the same abilities. Do attributes have different consequences for leveling it let's see... Nope always the same.
So no attributes don't make a character unique, perks on the other hand do.

I understand it might be hard having learn to script in a different way now but you honestly can't expect it to always remain the same can you? And it's not really a good reason to deny an obviously superior system.

I honestly don’t see how this will work. In fallout 3 you had perks but they were not tied to stats other than stats requirements. You also had level and attribute requirements.
The strong back perk had a strength requirement, nothing else. In Skyrim you have to put it under a skill, unless I misunderstand the perk system totally. Now select one skill to put it under, mercantile? Yes you can put an armor encumbrance perk under heavy armor but not strong back.

Yes obviously encumbrance is governed by a perk under mercantile /sarcasm
You can't fathom that with 250+ perks that there may be some not governed by a skill and might just be general specializations? Or that race may play a factor? Use your imagination.

@br0sk1: You're stating that that the switch from attributes to perks is "obviously superior" . . . when you haven't even played the game yet.

I never stated that it the change is obviously inferior to the way that it was done in Oblivion (on in the Fallout games) . . . just that I'm very concerned that this my be another way that simplification (such as all the hand-holding that was included in Oblivion, after some users whined that Morrowind was too hard).

I'm a huge fan of Bethesda . . . but I'm not blinded by the fact that they have a history trying to please gamers who do not like games that are "too hard." With Oblivion, what we were told was done to "simplify and streamline" the game play turned out to be what many of us found to be nothing more than "dumbing down" the game play, so that it would appeal more to the mainstream. So I feel that I have a right to be very concerned about the removal of something as important as attributes and slow level advancement and replacing them with a faster leveling and perks. I've learned to be wary of what is said when new games are being over-hyped.

As for the scripting part; how much scripting have you done? If you had done any at all, you would see the removal of the attributes, and our loss of no longer being able to alter them in scrips, as an issue. This is not something that you can just script different. Adding and removing perks with scripts is much less efficient then just modifying an attribute . . . which will greatly limit what can be scripted.

What makes me most crazy is the posts saying that perks and attributes are exactly the same. I don't think I want to even try to explain anymore.

A lot of people don't understand how the game mechanics work, and don't care, which is fine. Many of them would probably get it if you could sit them down with a modded setup and let them play to compare the difference.

What's interesting about this design decision is that it's created a rift of modders vs everybody else, or maybe PC vs console. If you don't know how bad some of the internals are, or don't care (without recognizing the impact on gameplay), then the argument for attributes won't make sense.

Anyway, I'm thinking that there will probably have to be a common library of attributes for scripters. Unless BGS seriously nerfs scripting, it should be possible to develop a common infrastructure, and maybe even get it into the HUD. Preferably a modular one, so that everybody can load a particular plugin with a standard set of calls, but have the option to choose your own attribute mod.

It could be by a static amount (Which could potentially be increased by perks or something.) or maybe it's determined by your magic skills for all we know.

But as to the initial subject, there are a number of ways I could see encumbrance being handled, maybe it's a static amount that may or may not be affected by your race, maybe some perks can increase it, maybe Bethesda has switched over to an inventory system based on space rather than weight, maybe scrib jerky tastes like chicken, I don't know, all I know is this, there are certain things about the game we still don't know, and making too many assumptions on these things could prove dangerous. Sure, it seems to be confirmed that attributes are gone, which proves one assumption on the game right, but that doesn't make everything we assume about it right. In other words, I'm not going to judge the new system until I've been able to try it myself, or at least have more information on it.

Well I suppose there is a difference in perspective between someone who mods and someone who doesn't (they're more than just numbers to you as a modder obviously). I also disagree about it simplifying anything at all. Seems like quid pro quo with more gains than losses IMO.

I haven't ever scripted anything because it was too complicated for me to spend time trying to figure out so sorry if I demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning this, but still things change they can't remain the same soley for the benefit of one platforms ability to use mods. I hope it doesn't take too much of a toll on mods because I love them but they have to think of the majority and that comes down to try and fix a broken system for the sake of one platform or create a new one that (I think) solves the gameplay problems the first one poses just fine and improves upon it. They very possibly could have fixed the old system too which I'm sure they would have tries first before creating a whole new one but apparently they didn't so we'll just have to live with it I suppose.

'Obviously superior' was referring to character uniqueness that you were talking about in your first post and was the main point of what I was saying (and I stand by that statement even knowing as little as we do) and not necessarily on all fronts as you show with the scripting problems it may pose. And yes even without playing with it yet I may draw the conclusion that it will work better than the old system. On forums here in particular It should usually be automatically implied that it's opinion not fact even if you disagree.

Edit: just wanted to add that it's been hinted that attributes are there but are simply not shown as a vital stat or are included in some other way.
I'm curious what your position would be if you could still use them for modding.(assuming they can be used the same way)

I think we have to play the game to see if this system works. :shrug:

But I have much faith in Bethesda. I respect them enough to trust them that they perfectly know what they're doing.
If they think this system is superior to the old one, then I guess they know best at the moment .

:tes:
I definately need a 'Love Bethesda' emoticon