I can understand why some people like the new system and others don't but it amazes me how eager some people are to throw Attributes under the bus the moment Bethesda say it's okay to do so. It's not like there have been hordes of people screaming (or even suggesting) that attributes be removed, yet, in the space of a couple of days they have suddenly become an archaic game mechanic that has no place in the modern RPG.

Actually, we had this conversation the first time we found out there were no attributes in Skyrim with the GI article and most people were against the removal of attributes but myself and others explained why it was okay with logical conversation and many of them decided they thought it was a good reason and this second round here had Todd explaining the same thing we did months ago and even more have seen it. We aren't saying that attributes were so terrible and we all saw it, we are saying that they are far less useful in comparison with the new system and that there really isn't a reason to be offended with their removal as their central function is still in the game. The new system has the same function and more as the old system did, I really don't see a downside of any conceivable way. It just seems nostalgia is the only driving force in being offended with attribute removal. Nostalgia seems to be a corrupting force. Nostalgia was the reason some people couldn't enjoy Oblivion for what it was and the reason why Morrowind is so highly overrated. However, Nostalgia affects different people on different topics. They may have nostalgia that makes them hate Oblivion for reducing the number of skills but not have nostalgia make them hate the removal of attributes and so on.

Well you might think it's archaic, but these traditional rpg traits are what makes TES my favorite rpg series. I agree with you; rpgs seem to be moving in the same direction (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fable), and I don't like it. I want a game that covers what these other rpgs are neglecting. But that's just me I guess.

Actually, we had this conversation the first time we found out there were no attributes in Skyrim with the GI article and most people were against the removal of attributes but myself and others explained why it was okay with logical conversation and many of them decided they thought it was a good reason and this second round here had Todd explaining the same thing we did months ago and even more have seen it. We aren't saying that attributes were so terrible and we all saw it, we are saying that they are far less useful in comparison with the new system and that there really isn't a reason to be offended with their removal as their central function is still in the game. The new system has the same function and more as the old system did, I really don't see a downside of any conceivable way. It just seems nostalgia is the only driving force in being offended with attribute removal. Nostalgia seems to be a corrupting force. Nostalgia was the reason some people couldn't enjoy Oblivion for what it was and the reason why Morrowind is so highly overrated. However, Nostalgia affects different people on different topics. They may have nostalgia that makes them hate Oblivion for reducing the number of skills but not have nostalgia make them hate the removal of attributes and so on.

Yes, its archaic. Like i said before, most RPG are heading towards cool traits/perks/abilities and moving flat numbers to be behind the scenes and effected through other mechanics.

Actually, we had this conversation the first time we found out there were no attributes in Skyrim with the GI article and most people were against the removal of attributes but myself and others explained why it was okay with logical conversation and many of them decided they thought it was a good reason and this second round here had Todd explaining the same thing we did months ago and even more have seen it. We aren't saying that attributes were so terrible and we all saw it, we are saying that they are far less useful in comparison with the new system and that there really isn't a reason to be offended with their removal as their central function is still in the game. The new system has the same function and more as the old system did, I really don't see a downside of any conceivable way. It just seems nostalgia is the only driving force in being offended with attribute removal. Nostalgia seems to be a corrupting force. Nostalgia was the reason some people couldn't enjoy Oblivion for what it was and the reason why Morrowind is so highly overrated. However, Nostalgia affects different people on different topics. They may have nostalgia that makes them hate Oblivion for reducing the number of skills but not have nostalgia make them hate the removal of attributes and so on.

Oh please Sleign. If Todd Howard announced tomorrow that the new focus of the game was killing puppies, you'd be on here repeating all of his talking points about how much killing puppies was going to add to the game and accusing anyone who opposed it of simply being filled with nostalgia for the days when TES games didn't center around puppy-killing.

I don't think it's nostalgia I think it's the fact that a feature in the game is being removed. It was the same thing with Spears, Levitation, Werewolfs, etc when they got removed. Change takes time to get used too and I usually would be skeptical of Change too but this particular change had to happen. The 8 Attributes wouldn't have worked in this system and the perks can easily do the same things that Attributes did not to mention that Morrowind and Oblivion didn't help the Attributes cause.

This sounds exactly like "dumbing down" to me. I like to see numbers. I like to see them in spreadsheets and study different "builds" of characters, and strategize to optimize my build. Perks just don't give me that same pleasure.

And is this a bad thing? I'm sure if you were in Zenimax's place or Bethesda's place, making more money on a product is a good thing, and your decisions would also be the same. In this day and age, and in this economy, it's the way things work. What isn't about money, when it all boils down?

Bethesda doesn't design games to suit what YOU like, and what only YOU merely believe should be included in THEIR game. A monetary-based economy will only continue to place monetary gain first and foremost, so why is there so much complaint? Don't like it, boycott Bethesda along with every single corporation in existence and live life as a hermit. Otherwise, stop all this negativity and enjoy the game when it comes out. Or better yet, go to art school and get a degree in video game development and start designing games how you think they should be designed, and see what happens when millions of people say they hate a certain thing you've done, while another million people will praise you for it. That's life.

Despite your thought about somehow I only follow Todd Howard, my motivations are my own, you just believe that everyone just blindly follows dev posts. How do you explain the fact that months ago we had this same discussion and I was on the same side. There was no Todd Howard video talking about attributes back then. Nice theory... with each of your posts you get less and less credibility from me.



But that is Nostalgia. If Skyrim was the first TES game, then no one would be complaining about everything that has been revealed. Thus it's nostalgia. It's an unfortunate side effect of having a series because most series have this problem because people remember the wonder in the first of the series and they remember how it made them feel and when they think it won't make them feel the same, they start to get disappointed and when they actually play the game, they still have an air of disappointment and thus it doesn't feel the same, it feels worse and then they think it's a lackluster game when in reality it isn't.

Perks have the potential to alter your experience more than numbers do. The way I look at it, if you have 8 attributes, you have 8 things to modify. This might change a bit if one attribute effects a couple things (strength effecting damage and encumbrance). However, all in all, attributes didn't effect your gameplay much. In contrast, perks (if implemented properly), can give you a very large range of different additions to the game,...

Splitting your post up into smaller quotes because I responded point by point - not trying to misrepresent your argument or anything like that.



I don't imagine there'll be balance perks, particularly, though maybe under armor (more agile use of armor = harder to knock over because you're more in control of your momentum). Perhaps pick up a perk for blocking or parrying to allow you to stop those knock-down blows before they hit you? Why satisfy yourself with just one way to go about doing something when you could approach the problem from multiple angles?



The removal of Acrobatics means I'd say probably not, but the gameworld probably isn't going to be made to keep things from people who can't bound over buildings like Superman - the ability to jump probably simply wouldn't be that relevant of a skill. And if there WAS a perk to increase jump height, I don't see anything much wrong it - though I have no idea how they'd fit it under any of the current skills.



Well... why not? You learn by doing as much as you learn by studying, don't you? Frankly, I've only recently started to learn to cook and was just learning how to boil rice a couple months ago. It used to take me hours to chop vegetables for a dish - I was incapable of making supper in a timely manner at all. Now, I'm still slow, but I've cut prep time for most things down to an hour at most through the use of new techniques I've naturally picked up just from using the knife. If the overall skill is Cooking and I've been working on it for a while, I'd consider that taking a perk in knife handling.



I think you're overthinking things - spreadsheeting probably only matters in particular when you're optimizing a character, and that is certainly fun to some people but you seem to want more immersion and RP. To that end, why bother worrying about how many perks you can "spare" to get a character that fits your concept? Make choices as you're given them and build your character organically, then deal with the challenges that arise from inefficiencies in that arrangement (or, perhaps, enjoy the benefits of unexpected synergy). Isn't that the point of roleplaying? If Beth manages to balance the game well enough, it shouldn't be possible to gimp your character into unplayability merely by taking a few perks for flavor instead of optimization.



You could just represent that a different way and get the same effect - chug Fortify Magicka and Fortify (Skill) potions. Once you're sitting at Destruction 150 and have a pool of Magicka as deep as the sea, I'd say you're capable of performing feats of magic far in excess of anything a mere regular mage is capable of. You're on a different plane of existence - the only difference is what you're buffing, not what you can do with it. It means you have to use more focused buffing items, yes, but that's a relatively minor thing - I mean, if you're a skilled enough alchemist you should have no trouble churning out skill and magicka-fortifying concoctions. Hell, after all that time spent focusing on the craft, you might even pick up a perk or two towards it to help your output. The sky's the limit.

EDIT: Updated my post to reflect changes in yours.

Really, what's changed by the removal of attributes for anyone who actually understands this game? The default choice to make a crippled git of a hero? Yay.