I am starting on a "re-imagining" of the old C&C mod.

Mad props to the original modders (Gabba, Migck, Wsrowland, Lingwei, and Showler) for their great ideas and hard work.

This is a discussion thread for ideas that you would like to see in this mod.

I'm starting with the fighters guild, so lets keep topics focused on that for the time being.

If you have any ideas, thoughts, want to test, let me know.

-dan

Basic idea -
Becoming the head of the fighters guild should require more than being a unknown level 1 mage running a couple of missions. You need to acutally have some fighting skills, prove you have those fighting skills, and work your way up the ranks.

Mod Notes -
In order to be as compatible as possible this mod will Modify as little as possible.
New locations (training/testing rooms) with doors from inside the fighters guilds.
New NPCs to perform as much of the interaction as possible.
New quests to handle as much of the advancement as possible.
As little dialog/Quest changes to the original fighters guild members as possible.
This mod will require OBSE
This mod will be designed for Vanilla (with OOO/FCOM compatability plugin as required for the Recomendations).


With that in mind I propose three types of requirements to advance within the guild.

Three Types or Requirements
1) Skill based requirements
- Grouped into Offensive (Marksman, H-H, Blade, Blunt) and Deffensive (Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Block)
- In order to advance you must meet minimum attack and deffensive skill ratings
- YOu can meet this requirement by either being focused (one skill in each counts) or a jack of all trades (sum of the skills count)

2) Combat Tests
- Some levels require a "Combat Test Certificate" - these will not be easy to earn.
- These tests can be completed at any time at any rank/skill level, just go to the tester and ask to participate in the "XXX Rank Test"
- There may be other ways to "obtain" these certificats for the crafty player.
- There will still be a "Block Test" members of the fighters guild need to know how to deffend themselves

3) Guild Reccomendations (Really impress certain members of society)
- Some ranks require a certain number of "Reccomendations"
- These will be things like kill 400(configurable) goblins, or Close 15 oblivion gates
- I DO NOT want to make this a quest mod, (an expanded fighters guild sounds great, but that is beyond the scope of this mod at the moment)
- Really could use some ideas here!!!!


Proposed Requirements - Will be settable in INI file and will change over time

Level1 (to join) - Any Offesnsive Skill >= 25, Any deffense Skill >=25
Level2 (to get Journeyman) - Any O-Skill >= 35 (or Sum O-Skills >=70) - Pass JourneyMan Test
Level3 (to get Swordman) - Any O-Skill >= 45 (or sum >= 100), Any D-skill >=45 (or sum >=80) - Pass Basic Block Test
Level4 (to get protector) - All O-Skills and D-Skills >= 25 - Pass Protector Test
Level5 (to get Defender) - Any O-Skill >=65 (or sum >= 145), Any D-Skill >= 60 (or sum >=130)
Level6 (to get Warder) - Any O-Skill >=75 (or sum >= 185), Any D-Skill >= 70 (or sum >=160) - Pass Warder Test
Level7 (to get Guardian) - Any O-Skill >=85 (or sum >= 210), Any D-Skill >= 80 (or sum >=180) - Pass Advanced Block Test + 1 Reccomendation
Level8 (To get Champion) - - Pass Champion Test + 3 Recommendations
Level9 (to get Master) - - +5 Recommendations


- Training Sessions against a live opponent (Training Swords(1 and 2), Blunts (1 and 2), Boxing Gloves) - If you attack without training equipment, they will get pissed and will not train with you for 24 hours, do it again and its a week, do it again and it's never again. You can wear whatever armor you want. However wearing special training armor, increases your armor training speed.

- Indoor Archery Range (don't want an outdoor range that is not compatible with Vanilla/BC)
- Provide targets that when hit increase your marksman skill.
- Level based increases, more useful at lower skill level. At some skill level they provide ZERO benifit.
- Different range targets for different XP
- I would love to add some "magical" targets that move, well see about this though.



--------------Rank Test Setup ------------------
- When the room is entered, the following scripts activate
- All equipment is unequiped and moved to a storage container
- No potions, magic equipment, ect to help you.
- Weapons and Armor are added to your inventory
- The Armor Level of the Tester and the PC is based on the test level - Higher level test = better armor
- Therefore it is very useful to have high level Armor/Block Skills
- Test Armor Rating(light armor) - 20(13),40(27),60(40),80(53)
- The testers skills are based upon the level of the test.
- The tester is given magical effects based on test level (bonus to health, regen, ect)
- Everyone is silenced - this ain't the mages' guild FOOL!
- The test ends when you give up(leave the room), win (knock tester unconscious), health drops too low, or you die (testing accidents should be avoided, but they happen)
- After failing a test you must wait at least 24 hours for first retest.
- After two failures in a row you must wait at least a week for the next retest.


---------------- Block Test --------------------------
- Bring your own favorite Equipment
- Special scripted weapon on opponent that deals no damage -
- If you are blocking when the blow lands, and have been blocking for less than X second, then you get a block.
- If you are blocking when the blow lands, and have been blocking for MORE than X second, then you get a pass.
- If you are not blocking when the blow lands, your tester scores a hit.
- If you get enough block before he hits you too many times, you pass.
- Basic Block Test (20 blocks = pass, 5 hits = fail, X = 1 second)
- Advanced Block Test (30 blocks = pass, 2 hits = fail, X = .5 second)
- Test can be repeated once per day
- Test can be stopped by passing the test, failing the test, or leaving the room


---------------- Recommendation from "The Fighters Guild Council" --------------------------
"The Fighters Guild Council" consits of leaders from most of the local fighters guilds as well as Vilena's respected friends in Chorral
- It is implied that you already have "earned" recommendations from Burz gro-Khash, Azzan and Modryn Oreyn
- Approval is gained by killing certain type enemies or other misc attributes.
- These can all be set in the INI file
1) New Fighters guild NPC in Skingrad - 400 goblin kills
2) New Fighters guild NPC in Bravil - 200 Bandit Kills
3) New Fighters guild NPC in Leyawin - 200 Marauder Kills
4) New Fighters guild NPC in Chorral - Reach Master in Any Attack Skill
5) New NPC in Chorral (Countess's Advisor) - 10/15 oblivion gates closed
6) New NPC in Chorral (Chapel of Stendarr Priest) - Fame - Infamy >= 50
7) New NPC in Chorral (Vilena's old Friend) - Bribe, some other idea

As opposed to having a separate test for block, lump it in with the combat test, after all, combat consists of more than just wailing on someone with your pointy stick.

I like where this is going. I'd also consider using the sum of the combat skills as a possible ranking indicator. For example maybe have a total of 35 skill points in either offense or defense to join the Fighters guild but need a total of, say 50, in both to advance. Then at higher levels make the requirement cover both, so that the total of all 6 skills is greater than 400 to advance, then greater than 500 to advance again. This might give a bit more freedom in character development.

I love the training room idea. I wish the vanilla trainers worked that way.

kandiedan-

Have you actually played any version of C&C?

I've played most of them, but with a fighters guild character. There are plenty of ideas in the C&C threads.

In order to advance via C&C you had to gain favor from the guilds which were done by the normal quest story line + an added bit about collecting trophies from kills (fingers from bandits, hearts from daedra, wolf pelts, etc) this added to a score that determined the highest possible rank. I found that with FCOM installed and getting MMM ingredient drops that closing about 3 gates gave me enough daedra hearts to be the supreme grand poo-ba of the fighters guild.

To actually earn rank though you had to be accredited in skills. This meant testing. You had to have a certain skill level to take the test to get accredited. So if you didn't have say 50 on block then the examiner (almost always found in the practice rooms) would say 'come back when you are ready.' What I had an issue with was even with mods that make combat hella hard - I never had an issue with beating the examiners. But these examinations is where C&C fell down.

Almost all the problems with C&C really come down to problems that would arise during the actual test itself. Often scripts would get interference from other realism mods - as it is the renovated version that PetrusOctavanius created (by editing the original version of the mod) was the most stable, but had far less bling. That version works! I think a link might be available in the C&C thread - http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1091765-relz-choices-and-consequences/page__view__findpost__p__16212081. I disagreed with his choice to leave the villages 1.1 mod in it, but better than a version that doesn't work.

Another bottleneck, as described above, was that you both had to have certain accreditations (on skills) to get offered new quests (well vanilla quests that are new to the character) that would then contribute to rank.

So that three way check system did make it more difficult to rise in rank. Still my character as he is now can mop the floor with any of those FG members. He is level 26 and still doesn't have any skill over 75 except swords, so that part too I found unrealistic.

Also the examiners didn't have special rooms to test in they tested right in the practice area offered by vanilla guild layout. Having run three massive load orders with 300+ mods (and very different mods in each) I never saw a conflict with that.

To summarize:
The conflicts really came down to realism mods (realistic fatigue, Reneer's guard mod, Kuertee NPCs yield) interfering with scripts and the completion of examinations.
The collection of trophies was not a challenge with mods that offer more ingredient drops.
The examinations not really a challenge once the right to participate was earned.

[edit] also thinking of other mods that could be uses as inspiration for more quests:
Damsels in distress
Fighters Guild contracts

I really like tests . . . If I could think of more interesting tests I would.
I think the block test is interesting enough to be included . . . but we'll see.
If I can come up with a good idea for a marksman's test that is interesting, You'll see it. I'm toying with the idea of enemies that pop up and run away that you have to shoot "ala duck hunt only not lame", but again we'll see.



Again the numbers will be fully configureable. I'm was trying to break it down into offense and deffense because I thought it "makes sense", but it would be no problem to add a check for the 6 skills combined. You could then set up the INI file to use whatever checks you wanted. Good idea!!!





Indeed I have played C&C from way back in the day through the modern versions by Gabba.



What I loved about C&C.
Guild Skill requirements
Guild reputation requirements.
The Idea of tests.
I liked the changes to the random quests out in the wild, but that's for a different mod

What I didn't like about C&C
The way the skill requirements were set for each level - no way to customize to my play style.
Guild reputation needed work with a FCOM setup (adding more types or hides, making the number appropriate)
Lets be honest, the test's were kinda meh and could sometimes get "stuck"


So my plan was to keep the parts that I liked and revamp the parts that I didn't.
* Separate skills from tests - and make the tests hard to pass.
* Add the ability to configure the all the settings to meet your play style.
* Add a little more depth to the guild reputation system.

I like how this is shaping up- just one more thought, can one get more quests? Just to prove one's mettle, advancement might require one to eradicate pests from certain caves etc. Similar to Daggerfall, I guess?