I am not enraged, and there is no misconceptions in my knowledge of "what is level scaling". It still is NOT necessary to do game challenging, and it still DOES kills immersion and believability of the game. And THAT is bad.

You haven't been paying attention, have you? I was addressing concerns raised specifically by the thread starter, who focused upon Oblivion.

Sorry if something like this has already been posted, but I'd like to help demystify level scaling for people. I hope it helps, or just confuses everyone. :whistling:

Level scaling is not a natural concept. There are an extraordinarily few concepts in this game that do not have a similarity to an element of real life.
Basically, level scaling is an artifact of heavy simulation of entire populations, meaning that they don't actually do anything while you're gone, but they seem like they have. Nobody really walked into that dungeon, and nobody put their treasure in, but the designer wants you to think they did.

In real life, level scaling happens in an organic way. People who share each-others company often train with each other, and their levels tend to become similar as one increases. An extreme of this is in a training camp where people who have level 0 or level 1 combat skills are trained to the combat standard level of the training camp.
The difficulty of this reality is that it's hard to predict what a chaotic group will do. Chaotic groups being anyone who ignores social hierarchies and does their own thing, like bandits. They may decide to train themselves up, or preserve the status quo. It's not as organized as a densely populated and highly organized city group, where you can easily guess how strong most people are based on their caste/class/job in society. Even animals are somewhat standardized in nature because biology tends to build them up to similar levels of strength and agility based on species and breed. Wild animals don't have to walk on a treadmill or lift weights to stay fit, obviously.

Because of the chaotic nature of the enemy, RPG players to imagine whatever odd situation they wish. This is a fun and natural way to role play in the age before computers and manufactured games for the masses. Unfortunately, someone decided to package this creativity and sell it, which took most of the spontaneous and free creativity away. The logical mind of the entrepreneur misunderstood the amazing range of creativity that this type of game has, and substituted in a set of dice. This simple switch is the origin of the entire level scaling problem, but it happened so long ago, it is here to stay. Ever since then, people who were obsessed with having a convincing enemy have attempted to balance level scaling, but to somewhat limited success. Again, this is because of the chaotic nature of criminals/bandits/etc. They just aren't a law abiding part of society, and they don't even follow their own rules.

Level scaling in Morrowind outside was exactly the "oh I leveled up, now there will be cliff racers" idea, as stated before. Exactly perfectly based on level, every playthrough. Same with Oblivion, except it was way more sensitive. Morrowind's system definitely won, mainly because there were easy weighted dungeons and more difficult dungeons. If you were a weak character, you can fight an easy dungeon all the way through, or if you were a strong character, you can fight in a really hard dungeon.

In Skyrim, beings in dungeons are (supposedly) spawned based on a level tolerance. If you are this level range, you get these opponents, and this other range, other opponents. Then the opponents stick, and are the same every time you return to that dungeon. Combined with the radiant story side quests, the designers are attempting to encourage you to visit every dungeon in the game. They worked hard on them, after all.
The outer area of Skyrim is more varied. The farther into the wilderness you go, the tougher the creatures get. That is simply an intuitive way to place creatures.

So the point of this post is that there need to be better simulation systems to more accurately portray chaotic activity patterns that reflect the "evil" or "criminal" flavor of the RPG humanoid enemy. The old system of "x dungeon type" should be removed, as chaotic beings travel, and they don't always choose the same place to live every time. This would make dungeons more replayable because dungeons would be more like a box-of-chocolates. The initial exploration phase would only find where dungeons are, not what is always inside, and what level they are.

Then why did you said that they haven't learned anything? They've returned to a more Morrowind like level-scaling in Fallout and they will use it for Skyrim as well, so they know what they did wrong in Oblivion.



Also this whole "level scaling ruins immersion" thing is pointless. Level-scaling is in the background, if it is done smoothly and if they wouldn't told you outright, you would hardly notice it in a single gameplay. Areas will be locked to a certain level because of continuity, so when you return not everything is suddenly going to be much stronger.
This is about as much immersion breaking as seeing the progression path with no level-scaling.

Because it retains scaling in critical (ie, main quest) areas. And Morrowind only did that very sporadically, giving you a sense of achievement when you actually could make it into those non-scaled areas and face those opponents on equal terms that were previously so formidably.

I completely disagree!

If you have zero level scaling the game becomes a joke after you level up.

The game needs to be able to be playable at early levels, sure you can have tough bosses that you can't defeat at early levels but most "bandits" and enemies you run into you still have a chance at beating or the game is unplayable.
So what would happen is that without any level scaling all other (majority) or creatures and enemies will be so weak against you at level 20 they just die in one swing with a sword or one spell blast.
That is NOT fun, you're not sword fighting anymore, there is no reason for health or blocking at all, simply NO challenge.
The bosses that used to be impossible are just a slight challenge cause you're so strong that you can defeat them all anyways.

Hence play the game for a while and in becomes a cake-walk and loses all meaning.

Therefore some level of scaling is good, not the type that makes all enemies as strong as you but they have to change some.

Let's say you start the game and you're level 1 and you meet the highway bandits and they are level 1-4 and you beat them and yes some challenge and fun, then when you're level 15 they should be raised to be level 10-12 or so.
This way they just don't die and they pose a challenge but you can feel you hit harder and you take less damage.
Ultimately the highway bandit should cap out at lets say level 18 or so and then never rise again, by then you're level 30 or so, so you are MUCH more stronger but at least they don't die by you just looking at them.

Imagine being level 20-30 and many common enemies are really low levels, what's the fun in that?

This is why it is LOGICAL and smart to have some scaling, they should just do it so it feels like you're much more powerful but not overpowered.
Also the scaling of the enemies would differ for what kind they are, how common they are and if they are medium bosses, elite etc.

How stupid would it feel to start the game at level 1 and all enemies are level 15 and you die all the time, you can't progress.
Why level 15 well cause they need to be higher cause you will level up pretty fast in the beginning.

Level scaling is needed for there to be a challenge and fun, just it needs to be well done and have different levels for each enemy until each enemy reaches a cap and then you just keep on leveling anyways.

I know that I want to face a raider in a ruin and actually have a little bit of a fight, where I parry and block and do a riposte with my sword and defeat him, not just schwooosh and he's dead.

The problem with later levels of Morrowind when the PC becomes too powerful is not a problem of place centric content distribution. Basically, the PC's potential was scaled way beyond the challenge of the world. Again the culprit is scaling. PC's max should have been slightly lower than the maximum threat level of the world. Like Skyrim's soft level cap of 50 might provide. Again this has nothing to do with level scaling.

Scaling vs. Uniqueness
Leveled lists != level scaling. One either creates enough unique content or creates less content and scale it to appear like more. If you have enough content, you don't need scaling. In Morrowind every NPC and creature were uniques. Their health was known and fixed. Scaling is "Health = 11 * (lvl-5), melee damage = 3+((lvl-5)/2)", this is a nightmare. Item scaling is even worse. It backfires so bad, you end up being accused for having "no content" where you probably have lots. Scaling immediately kills immersion, because it is very noticeable on uniques.

Morrowind only randomized its content based on level, didn't scale it. Content was present from the start but very rare for high level content. And it didn't remove low level content from the world all of a sudden. Did I mention everything was unique? Even random things were unique. All leads to a believable world. There was challenge, there was progress, there was surprise element. Randomization added enough dynamism. They just didn't manage PC becoming overpowered problem.

Akka is right.

PS. Two more things.
1. With soft level cap and new stat system without attributes, PC becoming overpowered isn't an issue any more, most likely.(A max of 50(or average of 30) health points at lvl 50 makes me hopeful about game world having believable health point ranges. Can't think otherwise. health = lvl*20 = 1000!!! Damages sponges FTW!!!)
2. Place centric content distribution with added floor and roof levels is still place centric content distribution.

PPS. Two more points.
3. There were problems in Morrowind aside from scaling. There were problems with Oblivion aside from scaling too. Somebody put glass armors on those bandits' inventory in Oblivion. Maybe it was the same person who didn't put glass armors in bandits inventory in Morrowind. Also Morrowind had high level content from the start as a part of unique content distribution, it was rare but it was there, all of them. Oppositely, majority of content was coming from leveled lists in Oblivion and also very few leveled lists in Morrowind was set to remove low level content from game, in Oblivion this was increased a lot. Oblivion felt too empty because of this. But these are not level scaling related.
4. The worst part of level scaling is people's perception on the difficulty. Those who leveled carefully got some linear challenge, those who played certain parts as low level got too easy content, those who didn't care about stats much, suddenly found themselves in nightmare difficulty. I experienced second and third. I don't think I would like first either though.

Haha one more point, Stalker does it right.

It can't be done smoothly enough to not be noticeable. There weren't any ogres and super mutant masters, only goblins and super mutants. Now there are. And while I had troubles against these goblins and super mutants with my steel saber and chinese pistol, now I have similar troubles against ogres and super mutant masters with ebony claymore and plasma rifle.

It cheapens gameplay.

Oh, and yes, progression paths with no level-scaling are usually immersion-breaking indeed. Why is there two similar villages on different sides of the country, one is plagued by goblins, and another by ancient liches, and yet second village haven't been incinerated by said ancient liches at the moment they decided that they don't like this village?

"Further to the forest — fatter the wolves", yes, and it perfectly works in open exploration game, as being shown on my map, and NOT in linear game.

So because of level scaling, there has to be less unique content...
... that's so not true.

And again I think we're having problems with communication because when most people mention level scaling they also mainly think leveled lists...

EDIT:

There are IN A DIFFERENT AREA!!!

You know what else is unimmersive? Goblins and ogres suddenly becoming less of threat and just a nuisance. If every goblin in the world is supposed to be weak, how come the town guard or other adventurers haven't killed them all yet?
No matter how strong you are a wolf can still be dangerous. If you're more experienced, you have more ways to take care of them, and you might have an easier time, but they're still should dangerous, not just an annoyance.

That's not true, I agree. I said, "If you have enough content, you don't need scaling." I'm pointing the perception of players. I know for a fact Oblivion has lots of content but still you will see people complaining about content. Since scaled items are no longer unique, perception of the player is skewed wrongly. Level scaling doesn't actually solve problems, it just introduces more.

And I noticed that too. I hope next thread can be a little more informative about these mechanics and their detailed usages in games. I don't know about Fallout 3's mechanics much, it would be good to have information on that too.

How do you guys feel about the way OOO did it? I just started playing that and it seems like a great balance (although I am early in the game)

Level scaling is limited to the areas of the game.

I don't play Oblivion without playing OOO, There is a Ayelied Ruin filled with Vampires and at the center is a powerful vampire slaying sword, they all had excellent equipement and would have pasted me at level 13, THEY were not interested at being my level when they are a superbaddass group of Bloodsvckers, I snuck, weaved and bobbed and didnt set off one, until I lay my hand upon the Sword at an Alter, Low and behold its the light of the Dawn, a Vampire slaying sword.

I stab the ring leader in the back (Deadly Reflex) he bursts into flames(Vampire mod) and I fight my way out, of course Im still weak, I just got lucky, i avoid swipes as best I can and the Ring leaders amulet protects me for a time. then things get hairy as the Amulet looses its charge and I am no longer able to resist the debuffing spells. My speed is halved, my fatigue is draining, I get shield bashed, i stagger, I take a frantic swing and chop off another enemies head, the rest are coming, swift and fast the light of their enchanted items illuminating ever closer! I sprint (another mod) with the last of my Fatigue I make it outside



DAYLIGHT!

several more stream out and Burn onto Oblivion.



I am rewarded for being brave, cunning and Daring. by outsmarting and out manuvering those undoubtedly stronger than I, I gain a awesome sword, and several enchanted Items. when I get stronger, this blade will finish the job here.

it isn't a neccessity of a free roam game. did you ever play mmos? free roam, no level scaling.

wow this thread has been discussed a lot.

This sounds like the best kinda level scaling you can have... (actually the only good idea... ever...) I'd prefer no scaling but atleast this does so a wolf den won't become a boar den because I leveled up... it'd just have more normal wolves and a stronger alpha...

All I can say is, Pokémon!

Yes those are different games but do I remember playing my first Pokémon game on the game boy colour only to find out that the game had been designed to be beat in a certain way that went against grinding, like at all... so even doing the end league fighting Lance was boring the first time with a level 100 Nidoking in my team.

I don′t want to admit that Skyrim will have to be made for those that just want to "rush to the end" and that without any level scaling. So like with the Pokémon games I don′t want to feel rushed to finish the quests just because it was designed for those that want to rush to the end, I want to thorougly get immersed into Skyrim and svck in the landscape and feel of the world before I go fight the final fight, and when that happens I don′t want to beat it with my eyes closed.

So this situation is a little hopeless, the main story should have the biggest baddie, and the game needs to be made for someone who just wants to rush to the biggest baddie, so without level scaling the biggest baddie needs to be... well... weak.

So I′m all in for a mixture of both, best would of course be no level scaling but have the world be designed the way most of those who frequent these forums would like it done, but that′s just not profitable when it comes to the mainstream audience so a bit of level scaling it is if the game is to be fun for us all.

Post limit.