So far, my only criticism is the lack of attributes. : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:15 pm

Ahhh please don't confuse attributes as system and flawed implementation of attributes what was done by devs, if they cant implement attributes in better way thats not problem of Attribute system, thats problem of implementation.
I mentioned some threads ago mod Intelligence overhaul what expand features of intelligence furtherer then just increase of Magicka.

My point was you don't absolutely need attributes for roleplaying, and if it's done badly, it can even hold you back.

First person, action role-playing, sandbox actually, and yes Oblivion has most bad implementation of attributes in series.

Then RPGs have been dying since 1992 as Ultima Underworld, the first FPS-RPG was released back then...!

CURSE YOU ORIGIN AND LOOKING GLASS STUDIOS!

Difference?
Oh well don't try disassemble blocks of RPG by parts and try put them against each other, attributes skills and perks work in synergy if implemented well, its the same if some one take spinal cord and brain from organism and then say thats brain not needed at all, because spinal cord control movement also.
Attributes are natural abilities you born with them and then they grown, your skills and perks is acquired abilities you learn them, remove attributes and you remove your natural side, its that same if races was axed.

I was talking about the sense of achievement the OP was talking about.

And Attributes are totally an irremovable part of the RPG genre. Deus Ex was a broken game as I've heard....

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:13 am

Honestly I never felt like strength really increased my damage anyway

I never really felt that the skills did either. The only reason really to level the skills was to, well level, and get the "perks" at 25/50/75/100. Hopefully skills will have a greater impact this time around.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:51 am

I never really felt that the skills did either. The only reason really to level the skills was to, well level, and get the "perks" at 25/50/75/100. Hopefully skills will have a greater impact this time around.

Skills def raised weapon damage. It showed you in game the skill damage

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:39 am

Yeh.
Personally, I have changed over to referring to Skyrim as an Action-Adventure instead of an RPG - which is not meant in any way derogative, I'm very fond of AAs as well. But I feel that in Skyrim, the game's overall focus will be on combat and questing/interaction with the environment, even more so than in previous games. There are still important role playing elements, and the differentiation between genres is difficult and sometimes even ridiculous anyway. But it seems to me that the actions associated with building your character have been moved further into the background, and are something you do just once in a while when you level up. According to Todd, you can "play the game without looking into the skill menu once".

There are only so many changes you can take before you don't like something anymore. But I never thought Skyrim will cross my line.

Here with you on this one. I can't get excited about Skyrim as an RPG. It crosses lines with Bioshock, DA2 too much now. So my expectations is that it will be a great AA. Skyrim is trying to mimic others dragons, no attributes, dual wielding, plasmids so much now that they are no longer leading the RPG field but following the trend of simplicity. There was a thread that stated Skyrim as the end to all RPGs. I agree with this thread, but in the since that with Skyrim, the true RPG is gone.

So I decided to be excited about an AA game and therefore I won't be dissapointed with an expected RPG.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 am

It won't, it will just make it easier for people who are too lazy to read what attributes do. :swear:

wow really, that has nothing to do with why they took out attributes at all. How can you make judgment on a game that is nowhere close to being released, let along showing us decent gameplay footage?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:18 am

when I say Perks are beneficial Im alluding to the fact that (and I love how my first post was Ignored considering H/M/S not being Attributes but BARS that display your STATUS not what your character can and cannot do) attributes ensure your not the jack of all trades IF DONE PROPERLY (I.E NOT LIKE OBLIVION) Perks you just choose to add to your character, there is no downfall beyond Ups I didn't get that so I'm mortally screwed and Can't fight so and so properly.

For the first part, I would agree that you health/magicka/stamina aren't attrributes the way you are looking at them. Instead of thinking of the bar that tells you the percentage you have left of each, think of what your maximum is. That makes it an attribute. The current amount of gas in my car isn't an attribute. The size of the gas tank is, though.

Maybe I'm misreading your scond part I quoted, but I see them as similar. For attributes, I have to choose which attribute gets an increase, and the cost is not increasing another attribute. The same holds true for perks. I can choose the perk to make my steps quieter, but then I don't get the perk that allows axe bleed damage. Unless you are talking about attributes like in Fallout, where they are more or less fixed. In that case, ignore my previous statement.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:46 am

My point was you don't absolutely need attributes for roleplaying, and if it's done badly, it can even hold you back.

My point why remove flawed classical feature while better fix it and improve it, and thats consider not only attribute system but in overall features from TES game series.

Then RPGs have been dying since 1992 as Ultima Underworld, the first FPS-RPG was released back then...!

Oh well don't start please, its the same if say PC gaming is Dead at every next generation of consoles.
There is still released awesome RPG, just need look more and believe me thats cost of it.

CURSE YOU ORIGIN AND LOOKING GLASS STUDIOS!

Curse was resisted,
Dragon Liche glares at You,
curse was reflected
you shiver from mystical freeze,
you feel strange encumbrance,
your Gaming Rig +3 blackened for a moment.

And Attributes are totally an irremovable part of the RPG genre. Deus Ex was a broken game as I've heard....

Deus Ex not The Elder Scrolls and have different implementation of RPG mechanic, it has radical differences and Skyrim close to classical TES mechanic more then to Deus Ex mechanic.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:19 am

wow really, that has nothing to do with why they took out attributes at all. How can you make judgment on a game that is nowhere close to being released, let along showing us decent gameplay footage?

We can because we are anticipating it and have nothing better to do.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:05 am

Here with you on this one. I can't get excited about Skyrim as an RPG. It crosses lines with Bioshock, DA2 too much now. So my expectations is that it will be a great AA. Skyrim is trying to mimic others dragons, no attributes, dual wielding, plasmids so much now that they are no longer leading the RPG field but following the trend of simplicity. There was a thread that stated Skyrim as the end to all RPGs. I agree with this thread, but in the since that with Skyrim, the true RPG is gone.

So I decided to be excited about an AA game and therefore I won't be dissapointed with an expected RPG.

Skyrim is still an RPG although they did simplify the Attributes into 3 main level up skills and the perks however we have no knowledge as to what perk will do what role that the attributes also did.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:52 pm

Todd pretty much confirmed that the only attributes you'll be raising at level up are just Health, Magicka, and Stamina. Or he implied that's the case by saying this.

It sounds to me like there's simply an option to raise Vitals instead of Attributes (or in addition to Attributes).

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:50 am

Fact: TES's systems have always been broken.

Whether this move makes them less complex or not, it'll be nice to have a system that actually works. I'll take a simple system that works over a complex system that doesn't any day.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 am

I never really felt that the skills did either. The only reason really to level the skills was to, well level, and get the "perks" at 25/50/75/100. Hopefully skills will have a greater impact this time around.

Skills did a huge effect when you went from untrained (around 15 let's say) to master (100) in a weapon type. It gives you around x4 damage for that training. On the other hand, going from the lowest base strength of 30 to the max of 100 only increased your damage by around 40%

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 am

Skills did a huge effect when you went from untrained (around 15 let's say) to master (100) in a weapon type. It gives you around x4 damage for that training. On the other hand, going from the lowest base strength of 30 to the max of 100 only increased your damage by around 40%

Skills had that big an effect? Hmm, don't remember it feeling like that. If I get the inclination I'll try it out tonight.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 am

Skills did a huge effect when you went from untrained (around 15 let's say) to master (100) in a weapon type. It gives you around x4 damage for that training. On the other hand, going from the lowest base strength of 30 to the max of 100 only increased your damage by around 40%

So what is thats problem of attributes or problem of flawed implementation of them?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:42 pm

things to understand guys. perks have perty pictures

also, this isnt exactly groundbreaking - dragon age 2 does somethin similar though it does use simplified attributes with basically 3 main bars (which in this case are just attributes).

yeah well.. DA2 svcked pretty bad... not the best example for a simplification well done.