Or Stamina, the higher your max stamina is, the more the amount you can carry.

That is a possibility. I'm looking at it like the more health you have the stronger you are. The stronger you are, you can carry more.

I was looking at it in a similar way, except the more your max stamina, the more energy you have.
The more energy you have, the more you can carry, and for longer.
Either or works for me.

and when you lose health...you get weaker?

So now I have a shizzax load of stuff on me....but Im low on health...so now I can't carry anything..

or my Stamina reaches 0 so now all of a sudden encumbered?


The level of rage players will experience in that scenario is unrivaled, your telling me I have to drop all my items to fight.......because thats what it looks like :teehee:

It could be based on your total health/stamina, not including damage you've taken.

hmmm.

and dieseases? both effecting what we are discussing, and how they will even exist?

Diseases effect health.

hmmm I don't know, that sounds basic and exceptionally abstract, instead of effecting the player in various ways, it seems diseases, if there are any. would just minus something from H/M/S and beyond reducing the amount of bar you have access too would be fairly insignifficant

Skills do more or less the same that the attributes do aside from effecting health, magicka, and fatigue. In Skyrim it will look different but it's not actually changing anything. Sure, fortify strength will no longer fortify all melee weapons but fortify blade is all you need anyways if you use weapons.

Captain you are marvelous today,
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Diseases
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Diseases
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Disease
Now put all of this Diseases effects in other parameters please

Diseases effect health/magicka/stamina.

Okay. I'll start with Oblivion diseases and translate those first then?

Astral Vapors: Same as Oblivion
Ataxia: Reduced carrying capacity and damage, reduced maximum Stamina
Black-Heart Blight: Reduced carrying capacity and damage, reduced maximum Health
Blood lung: Reduced maximum Health, maybe light bleed damage because it matches the disease's name
Bone Break Fever: From the sound of the name, increased incoming damage sounds right
Brain Rot: Why did this ever drain Strength? Have it reduce damage if you want it to stay the same, or reduced maximum Magicka to make more sense
Brown Rot: Reduced carrying capacity, reduced disposition
Cannibal's Prion: Greatly reduced maximum Magicka and Stamina
Chanthrax Blight: Reduced run speed
Chills: Reduced maximum Magicka and magicka regeneration
Collywobbles: Reduced maximum Health, Stamina, and run speed
ad nauseam...

Want me to go on? I can go on.

That quote is taken out of context. He was talking about it's classification as a skill. It's in stealth now but that doesn't matter because there are no classes.


It's just plain silly to assume that fortify skill will not be in when skills are the new attributes. Same goes for diseases which inherently debuff your abilities accept now that they don't debuff a blanket attribute so different diseases can have specific debuffs that make sense for the type disease it is. I never thought that diseases made much sense previously anyway.

I think this could be labeld as "imersion"
In real life you would also drop your back pack before you into a sword fight.



Diseases could effect really more than just Attributes (whatever they look like). E.g. reduced sight or weaknesses for elemental.

:rofl:



that is all.

Well Oblivion has most flawed implementation of diseases from all of three games, anyway OK
I better prefer if diseases will be more like in Daggerfall (incubation time, deadly loss of attributes, require service temple healer who want gold, or medic skills of character to diagnose) with different levels of like in Morrowind Common, Blight, Corprus which can be transformed into lesser common diseases thats can be treated with lesser cure diseases potion or lesser Cure diseases spell or resisted,
powerful ones thats cripple actor and what need special treatment more powerful cure potion or more magnificent Cure diseases spell or resisted only with powerful enough resists,
deadly ones what can bring dead to PC if not cured during some days of incubation and need specially powerful treatment.
Medical Skill can be replaced with skills in Restoration school and player will not see their names in effect screen until have enough skills in Restoration.

So diseases will actually something fearsome not just few red numbers in stat screen, and player will take then in account.
Proper work of attribute system can help much, or Devs must found equal replacement, but don't axe diseases if cannot find way to do thats, diseases one of classical features of TES they must stay in game.

Ataxia: Reduced carrying capacity and damage, reduced maximum Stamina
How you describe reduced carrying capacity by adding burden? thats OK
but what about reduced damage you use hidden variable thats previously represent Strength?
so it need additional spell effect or you will use script effect to bring it into calculation?

Bone Break Fever: From the sound of the name, increased incoming damage sounds right
So Weakness to Normal Weapons you mean?

Brain Rot: Why did this ever drain Strength? Have it reduce damage if you want it to stay the same, or reduced maximum Magicka to make more sense
Thats can be Bone marrow

Brown Rot: Reduced carrying capacity, reduced disposition
Well disposition is value of NPC not of PC and its based on many factors and not just plain value what you can easy modify, so you want again add hidden variable thats left from Personality Attribute into account, or want add scripted effect what will bring such variable into calculation

Cannibal's Prion: Greatly reduced maximum Magicka and Stamina
Well doesn't thats strange thats devour soul will replenish our magical reserves while, devour flesh drops our abilities in magic, Aztec believes who eat heart of enemy will receive his powers, Bosmers consume bodies of of dead also, Intelligence before increase magical reserves but don't decrease them until game is not moded to do thats, work of decreased Intelligence can affect other skills not magical one if devs make attributes in proper way.
Reduced maximum of fatigue as replacement for Agility will work if archery will depend of fatigue in more significant way like certain bows will burn more fatigue for draw, time in slowed time state will depend on fatigue, etc, but don't forget if attributes was implemented in proper way there can be more factors thats depend on agility but logically don't need high stamina

Chanthrax Blight: Reduced run speed
Again you bring modifer for calculated value not for plain value, what can be operated in easy way, you use hidden variable thats previously represent Speed,
so it need additional spell effect or you will use script effect to bring it into calculation?
Besides Speed Attribute can work as governing attribute for fast weapons, I don't think daggers and rapiers depend on Strength like great sword and axes, adding attributes into perk calculation for critical strike for short swords (agility), disarm for long blades (speed), armor durability damage for blunt(Strength), so speed attribute implemented in proper way not like before by devs, but more like in mods and other RPG systems, can affect not only speed of movement.

Chills: Reduced maximum Magicka and magicka regeneration
Reduced magicka regeneration, hidden ghost of Willpower again disturb you, again how you bring it into calculation?
And yes, Willpower can affect more then just magicka regeneration if implemented well, not like before.
And you forget add fatigue or again some hidden ghost of attributes into calculation since Chills has Drain Agility 10pts

Collywobbles: Reduced maximum Health, Stamina, and run speed ad nauseam...
Reduced health, can it bring death to PC when he have low value of health and catch diseases, thats looks interesting I must say,
reduced run speed as ghost of Speed attribute again comes into calculation.


Yes please, at last your post will be memorable as example thats diseases can be in game even without attributes, when at next time Todd will say thats diseases was axed because was superfluous or redundant or was too fearsome for newcomers as Birthsigns was.

Understood me I'm not fanatic of attribute system, I just need to know thats devs will found equal replacement for all variability what can provide improved attributes system, I understood why they change attribute system system but I don't understood completely axing of it since too much depend on it in game and in modding,
I don't like how they make streamline of TES by axing flawed features while sometimes better fix them to greater variability of possibilities.

Another example spellmaking on this forums one half of members want unique spectacular spells, another half variability of classical spellmaking in game,
devs have few ways to implement spells make completely hardcoded unique spells and remove spell making, since Devs want make spells more magical and more balanced thats is very likely will be, or left spellmaking in classical way what will not to be done I'm sure,
I want use their unique magic system in CS for creating even more number of unique spells thats then can be added by mods, system must be opened for modding even if it cannot be reached from in game.

Well I don't say thats there will be no fortify skill absorb skill or drain skill why you make such make such a conclusion?

If Attributes was tied to skills in proper way and actually govern them and skills have more then just one governing attribute, have fore features then just increase magicka like intelligence do then Atributes will be more then just blanket numbers, thats the same flaws what spells system has for example Mysticism has
and equipment variability in comparison Oblivion and Morrowind, or comparison of enchanting in Daggerfall then to Morrowind then to Oblivion, there was variability in features but feature was flawed in implementation in game (thats can be fixed by mods) and instead of fixing it by improving such feature in next game, Devs fix flaws by reducing or axing of features.
Thats wrong way in streamlining of game.

Strength was not the only variable that affected damage. So no, I wouldn't need a "hidden variable" that represents Strength.

Here is the damage formula:

Here is how WeaponRating is calculated:

Obviously, there will be a new weapon rating formula. "Strength" was only ever a variable in this formula. That's all it did to damage. So what you do is you make a new weapon rating formula without Strength and everything falls in place. Say for example it's this:

Here I created a new variable called Multiplier. I replaced Strength with a new variable called Multiplier. This is not a script effect, nor is it necessarily "hidden". In fact, it doesn't have to be exclusive to diseases. That variable can be used for all sorts of damage enhancements. It would default to 1.0, but race bonuses, perks, enchantments, buffs, debuffs, and diseases can all affect it. That's all Strength ever did for damage. That's how easy it is to replace.

The same thing applies to Willpower and Magicka regen, and Speed and movement speed. All the attribute does is act as a variable. It can be replaced with two seconds of work in the formulas. Here's movement speed:

This is multiplied by other variables determined by whether or not you have a weapon out, your encumbrance, if you're sneaking etc. Speed can simply be replaced with a constant value of 0.5, and additional variables similar to weapon-out or sneaking can be applied through perks to permanently increase running speed. Or going the opposite way, a disease can apply a variable less than 1 to slow the character down.

Here's Magicka regen:

This one has a long history of being changed. Many magicka and leveling mods have altered how magicka regenerates, from things as simple as altering the base and mult variables to factoring in the average of magic skill levels. Here Willpower can be replaced by a function of the Magicka attribute and an additional variable can be added that will allow for easy increases in regen based on perks, or magic skills, or decreases from diseases. All of this is up to Bethesda of course, they have an easier time changing these formulas since they write them in the first place.

This applies to every single time you mention attributes and question how Bethesda could possibly alter something without them. My answer is that they could do it easily. Only time will tell if they actually do, though.

I will reiterate: Attributes as they used to be are unnecessary. If they were expanded to do something different, cool. But they weren't, and instead we got an awesome perk system. Alchemy (and diseases) will have to change to support it, naturally.

Ahh I wait when you bring thats formula into discussion, I'm glad meet person thats also think in constructive way,
I also think thats Multiplier will come back now,
for first they actually will make races not equal and unique, because will work as starting attributes in proper way, as well will be used in powers calculation.
Multiplier will expanded furtherer then before as part only of intelligence
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Fortify_Maximum_Magicka
and
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Fortify_Attack
(will work as damage increasing open variable, then chance of strike)

All previous attributes will represented as Multipliers
Such Multiplier work actually as racial attributes, and work in power calculation and in alchemy and in diseases, they can work in both ways in fortifying and reducing outcome parameters.
Thats actual way how must been attributes work no flawed way one point of intelligence just increase magicka, as racial and received Multipliers, they work much more visible then just attribute increasing and actually represent natural abilities of races.
Such Multipliers can involved in work of perk mechanic as proper attributes, for example armor ignoring perk will receive significant bonus from Strength Multiplier what cant be increased over starting racial values in the same easy was as attributes before, so Orc thats equal to bosmer in all skills levels equipment and perks will do more damage because of his natural Strength Multiplier as well from his Berserk power which increase his Strength Multiplier furtherer, until Bosmer will not drink and Orc Strength potion and will do equal damage.
And with some scripting we can use them for modding as before we use attributes, interesting how Intelligence Multiplier thats increase for Altmers all point spended point on Magicka at x1.5 can be moded to work to not taken in account for maximum magicka for smart warrior or thief but add different features to them like
more skill training session per level?


Thats constant value can be changed as spell effect in racial Multiplier or from enchanting alchemy and spells, sprint speed can be multiplied on it from an perk.

But where is such perk can be placed since there is no more acrobatics and athletics skills?
Sport or Body Skill thats represent merged acrobatics, athletics, unarmored and hand to hand will be very welcome, do you think also?


I also hope they will found way, to actually move furtherer TES RPG mechanic, then reducing variability of possibilities.
And not reduce it, removing Birthsigns was really strange just because beginners will do wrong decisions at chargen, and take The Mage for warrior.

We have restoration for that yes? Now that alchemy is a stealth skill, I really hope for it to really be a stealth skill and not a buffing skill. More poison effects!

The removal of the attribute system eliminates a simple method to create complex interactions between the skills, the life meters, and the gaming system. Removing those base variables but leaving in their effects and shoe-horning those effects into the skills, health bars, and perk tree basically eliminates the layer that is necessary to create "simple" complexity of interactions between the variables.

Forget perks. Can you imagine a SR that has 100 unique skills? 200? Without those base values it becomes an impossible task as you need to perfect how each skill interacts with other interactions in the game on its own. Without those tied links back to some base values this would be an unbelievably complex task where the devs would then have to start cutting skills (heh!) and dumbing down the game (reducing fortify impacts, heh!) just so that they do not become overwhelmed with fine-tuning the details of having a game with hundreds of unique variables and nothing to hold them together.

So, what you end up getting is maybe a game with lots of neat bells and whistles and flat characters. Instead of having a potion to fortify your strength when you come upon a dragon, you will have a series of dragon toots, or 4-5 different potions, that will kinda sorta do something similar.

EDIT: As a side bar...

Let's pretend for a second the dev's thought about complexity of game play and imagined a scenario of increasing the number of skills from 20 to 100.

- With the old attributes system you needed 8 attributes for 20 some skills.
- With the old attributes system you would need 8 attributes for 100 skills.
- With an updated/fixed attributes system you would need 8 attributes for 100 skills.

- Using this lame perk tree to handle attributes you would need to have 280 perks for 18 skills.
- Using the lame perk tree to handle attributes you would need to have about 1,500 perks for 100 skills.