Terror I still think you need to plan for if they had already greatly reduced some of these atributes traditional roles.. such as strength anf carry cap endurance and health intel/will and its effects on magicka.

You need more effects OUTSIDE what they used to do just in case they wont budge on the effects that now come from perks race skill and the 3 stats.

That's the only problem with the 8 attributes that I can see right now that's not Oblivion related. Health, Magicka, and Stamina are basically Endurance, Intelligence, and Willpower. If I were to add more effects outside of what they may do I probably am better off getting rid of some of the Attributes like Endurance and Personality but then I would need a new formula or some new attributes.

I believe Strength, Speed, Agility and Luck can stay with no problems besides needing better effects with more time of thinking. I think Endurance, Intelligence, Willpower, and Personality can go. I'll have to think about it and then either change the formula, keep it the same but possibly tweak it or go with 3 or 4 new Attributes.

Well strength might be a bigger problem then you think. I think they had alot of bad feedback on ob inventory limits and on weapon armor and shield and many other object weights...

Then look at what they did in fallout 3.... I think from the start they planned to gut strengths effect on inventory down to a much much lower level with skyrim.

And with speed dont forget they dont want you to find it easy to run away anymore...I think like with fallout 3 they will want a much tighter control on runspeed.

I 100% agree with Speed and I think I addressed it in my system. Have a base set speed like Fallout 3 but have it slowly increase if points are put into Speed. 10% per 10 speed after 20 Speed isn't that much, I didn't really notice the Travel Light Perk's effect on running speed in New Vegas that allowed you to run 10% faster if your wearing Light Armor or no armor.

Strength is a little bit different. Fallout 3 never had any 60 pound items like Daedric Armor. Your going to need a higher encumberence limit otherwise everybody will be enchanting Feather X highest amount on their armor pieces. You could also have 100 Encumberence increase perks as an alternative if Attributes aren't in, which I'm thinking that's what they will currently do right now.

That's assuming that Bethesda sticks with their weights from Oblivion. "Epic Reality" remember, we might actually see realistic weights this time or at least closer to realistic than MW and OB as I know the reason for them being so far off is game play balance. I hoping starting from scratch has allowed them to balance in more realistically this time.

Here's my best guess as to what the new Skyrim "attribute" system does:

Health=Strength, Endurance, HP
Stamina=Agility, Speed, SP
Magicka=Intelligence, Willpower, MP

What I can't determine is where Charisma, Perception, & Luck fall under.
Any concrete info on this?

Health - 340 how does this mean I can deal 45 extra damage? or haul 40 pounds more than the average nord?

Stamina - 190 how does this signify Im fast as hell? or can effortlessly brush off with my dexterous body a blow?

Magicka - 200 how does this say how intelligent my char is? or their will power?

these are Stats, Numerical aspects of what the char has before they can't use certain abilities or Die...........they do not say how Likable/lucky/strong/fast/dexterous a char is....they are stats like all the other games, only difference is Attributes do not rule them....they are just a given....



Terrors Ideas are a start.

What your referring to is derived attributes, Health, Magika and Fatigue. In MW and OB attributes DID rule them because that is what they were derived from.

Yes, Health = Hit points in MW and OB and that is all it represents. In Skyrim it may represent more than that. Why is that not possible. Why can't a single number represent two or even three seperate things.

If it is total health = strength then that would be static and the HP would be separate from that. Do you follow? This would also allow a modifier towards strength to be added based on the over all level of skills that use strength.
Example: 100 health = 10 strength + 6 for total combat level of 60 = 16 str. You wouldn't be able to see this but it's there and makes your character builds have varying strength depending on the character's lvl up heath multiplier(may be based on race) and the more times you choose health as your extra at level up the stronger you will get. This same forumla can be applied to whatever you want to associate with H/M/S. Speed could also be placed under health with different multipliers coming from stealth skills instead of combat or a combination of the two.

I know it's completely backwards from the previous system but that doesn't make it bad by default.

I agree with you that stats aren't enough to have those effects.

But I have a point.

Let's take Speed. You want to know how fast you are. I want something different. I want to be a long distance runner, a short distance runner or a marathoner. Can a speed attribute let you to be those? Or how can you know you're one of those by just looking at a number? Speed 56. Now tell me how much that tells about my character?

All attributes can be divided into their individual specializations or bonuses. And they can be represented by a perk. Attributes with a number couldn't even dream that. They were for maxing everything without any power of customization.

I can write a quest involving a "long distance runner" now! Radiant story can assign it to your character if you have the perk "Long distance runner".

Imagine the possibilities, situations, opportunities...

Stamina could effect whether your short, long, or marathon runner. Overall speed would just determine your overall speed while sprinting. This is a reason to keep acrobatics and athletics, but merge them. Have it effect jump height and stamina consumption through perks.

Attributes are not inherently for maxing everything any more than perks are. That was simply the way they were implemented in Oblivion. Just as there will be a cap on the number of perks, there can be a cap on the number attribute gains.

Radiant story could also assign you the "long distance runner' quest if you have the requisite Endurance and Speed. Let's take that thought further: High Intelligence and Speed might recommend you for a "Battle of Wits" quest, Endurance and Willpower could lead to the "No one expects the Skyrim Inquisition!" quest. Imagine the possibilities, situations, etc, etc...

But in any case there is no reason why a "long distance runner" perk cannot exist along side attributes. A vote for attributes is not a vote against perks. Indeed, my ideal system would be one in which attributes and perks work together for the mutual benefit of both. Attributes can do a lot of the donkey work in shaping a character leaving the perks free to be sixy, shiny and interesting.

Through perks? Yes, hence the "enough" part. My point is just having one number isn't enough. One number would make the specialization a one way trip from short distance to marathon runner, like it is the best type or I have to wait for that.

I wish to see acrobatics and/or athletics too, or a combined one. Still, I think there can be non-skill perks covering them if necessary.

I focus on life's simplicities, so I'm not afraid to strip attributes away. Cause at the end of the day, it's still as simple as it seems.

@Chryseis,
I chose speed because it was easy. Other attributes are more suitable for what I am trying to say where there are more unmeasurable types rather than measurable things like running speed.

There isn't one number, theres two. The Athletics/Acrobatics merger and speed. The proposed A/A merged skill would effect overall stamina consumption in various ways, the perks for said skill would add variety in jump height and other perks making up for the merged skill and various other intricacies.

This would mean an addition of another skill not just adding more attributes in.

Personally, I think you're on to something. I don't know if you are aware of it, but there is a mod for Morrowind called, "Galsiah's Character Development", that does pretty much what you are describing. The skills that you use contribute towards leveling up your attributes, and does so automatically. IIRC, there are no attribute multipliers upon level-up, though it has been a long time since I've played, so I could be mistaken about that. At any rate, it makes the whole leveling process feel much more organic. The only downside to the mod is that leveling is painfully slow. Before the announcement of Skyrim's leveling system, I had hoped they would use GCD as a model. Perhaps the new system implements something similar -- only even more 'behind the scenes'. At least, that is my hope. I am having a hard time seeing how the new streamlined system is able to address things like 'becoming' stronger / smarter / more agile, etc. otherwise. IMO, GCD / your system would be the best approach towards fixing the attributes / leveling issue.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=2030, in case you're interested.

I dont know why you take the time to make that post.... the game is less than a year away do you think they will scrap their entire system to make a new one?

anyway attributes were useless piles of number nobody realy gave a [censored] about them. those complaining about them being gone are just the same people who complain about console players, quest markers, and everything else thats was new in oblivion or is new in skyrim.

The idea isn't to scrap the current system. The idea is to add Attributes in along side Perks, however make Attributes less important then the perks and fix the flaws that Attributes had in the previous games.

Eh.. sorry I came in late to this discussion. I'm personally not too crazy about having attributes level up with your character, and prefer the classic approach where you pick them at the start from a pool of points. This makes them less like skills (which are earned through experience), and more like a characters fundamental set of strengths and weaknesses.

So, ideally I would like to see static attributes, and have negative consequences (i.e; -2 to damage for low strength) for lower attribute choices.

When this hits 200 posts I'll start Thread 2 with some of the changes that I've thought of with the attributes. I may have to completely tweak the formula around. We will have to wait and see :biggrin:



Something Similar to Fallout 3 where you pick your attributes at the start. I've thought about doing something similar to that at the start but I didn't want it to be a copycat from Fallout 3.

True, but it's not just Fallout 3. This is the way it's worked from back in the days of Dungeons and Dragons.

Start up thread 2 if you like, I reported the thread. please put disclaimers in your next thread that this is an IDEA NOT A COMPLAINT THREAD, it gets annoying seeing people say

The game is six months away --- 4 months ago Spell comboing wasnt possible....which wouldnt have been possible if they hadn't descided to start dual wielding which only came recently, which effect all NPC's and completely redid the entire combat and equip system in Skyrim

Those who want attributes are the same people complaining about consoles and quests markers - lol.......ok

Nobody ever cared about attributes :bonk: --- I guess people like Terror are nobodies then?

If you've nothing to contribute then don't post >_> if you don't care, Don't post >_> :poke:

are there.....perks that correlate with attributes in your system?