Well, I just read the locked topic about the attribute system I'll try to initiate a discussion about the leveling system itself. This is not a "BUAHHH I want the old style back" or "HAHA I like the new style better!".
No. It's just some concerns about how the general mechanics should feel...


One of the things I like about the new system it that it's more intuitive and puts you in control only of your character, not a robot being carefully calculated to head in a marked direction.

I think RPGs are more than just some numbers and attributes. It's used to be that way because of the lack of technology to simulate it, that's why they had dices, papers and numbers.
What's the idea behind an RPG? To tell a great story. To immerse yourself in a different reality. To battle. To chat with diverse people of different cultures... you say it.
By carefully calculating your next step (eg.: I need to raise 10 skill points in three attributes to gain maximum stats raise) you're heading away from "living" the world you see. That's not dumb down the game, it's just use some real life elements that weren't possible before.

I'd like to comment on another example: GTA: San Andreas
The only possible way to gain strengh or stamina was by going into to the gym!
Ok, maybe it wasn't the best or most fun system in the world but it was more immersive and fun than what we had in other RPGs.
While in GTA: San Andreas I went to the gym for some time to get stats raise, in Oblivion I had to get inside a room casting conjuration spells and killing my own creatures with whatever skill I needed to raise just to get the maximum bonus.
The leveling system we saw in GTA:SA was much more entertaning than most of the RPGs because they lacked the necessity of number choice.


Now, this whole discussion reminded me of the old xp points. What the hell is those experience points? A concept in which the player gain "battle wisdom" the more he battles.
Now we have technology to put these points under the hood and let the gameplay influence in how you level up. If you get severely wounded and somehow survive, even if it's a battle against a tiny rat you should earn more experience than fighiting a dragon and killing him accidentaly by bumping into a big rock and make it smash the dragon's head. Since you almost got killed, recovering from this status should make you raise your stamina and/or health, because that's what you just "trained".
Using this logic, attending magic classes in Oblivion would really be useful if the character really learned something.

You can imagine the possibilities by hiding xp points under the hood and just concentrate the player to have fun and engage. Some (or all) of you may not agree, but you have to at least consider that this leveling system in modern RPGs are used to extend the game time in a false way. By forcing the player to focus his efforts into a series of boring and repetitive tasks.
By doing that, you're not excluding those skills, just make them more... smooth into the gameplay!

I mean, you can still have your intelligence being informed, but by the form of a status (Dumb/Average/Genius). How to do that?
By uncountable possibilities why not get your inteligence raised by the number of books you've read? Spells you've known or have created? Sucessful speechcrafting? Etc, etc?

Why not have your strengh raise by the number of wood you chop? The number of heavy beasts you battle and so on?
I see much more FUN possibilites using methods like this one rather than the old one.


So my debate is: How can we make the leveling system more immersive and less mechanical?


PS: This tiny observation is only to say that I've got nothing against numbers, I'm graduated at economics and business administration. My whole life I got along with numbers, I just don't think they fit into some areas of your life. You don't look at yourself in the mirror and see that you have 60 strengh. It's just that! :hubbahubba:

Removing attributes is the best thing I've heard so far. They defined what being restrictive is all about. They won't be missed.

I know I might get flamed for this, but I believe diminishing the number of on screen mechanics in the game might improve the feel of it. I think at the current level they have it now with 3 attributes, 18 skills and several perks to govern them and do other general things they might have hit the nail on the head with this one. The more mechanics you have the more weighed down you feel by a number, at least thats how I feel. Actually having what you do affect whats going on around you is really what matters in an RPG, now how high a stat is necessarily.

Having several numbers on a screen isn't more immersion, its just more annoying. If Bethesda wanted to, they could put out 80 different skills to chose from but it wouldn't really improve anything, most of them would just be clutter. Seeing what you do affecting the outside world is much more interesting than seeing a stat raise from 89-90. It doesn't really change anything. However, if you talk to enough people then suddenly convincing people to do something becomes easier for you, indicated by a percentage(?), you can actually see improvement.

Immersion has nothing to do with numbers, it has everything to do with how the game feels. This is how the leveling and stat system should be.

We need the numbers to show us a representation of our skill/stats. We are not our Avatars, we dont know where they are in their progression. Our world is nothing but numbers, therefore any type of interactive, alternate reality we try to create will be defined by numbers as well.

Don't agree.
You only need them to process game issues under the hood. That's not a must, just an option.

The thing with numbers in roleplaying video game is that, no matter how you slice it, they're necessary. It's simply impossible - let me repeat that, with emphasis - impossible - for current computing technology to simulate something like lifting a heavy object without using numbers to represent the lifter's strength and the object's weight. There is, literally, seriously, no matter what anyone on this forum might say, no other way to do it.

So really, the only pertinent questions regarding those numbers, which MUST exist simply in order for the program to accurately represent interactions between actors and objects, are how they'll be recorded and managed, and whether they'll be shown to the player. They WILL be there - they have to be.

To use the GTA:SA example - when Carl goes to the gym and lifts weights and gets bigger, the program records that his strength is now . And from that point on, when he tries to pick something up or when he runs or hits somebody or what-have-you, the computer compares that number with a bunch of other numbers and determines whether he can pick the object up and how much work it'll take, how fast he'll run, how hard he'll hit, etc. It's all numbers and really nothing but numbers - the only difference is that the player doesn't see the numbers - he just sees that Carl's got bigger muscles and he can lift more weight and hit harder.


Just presented for clarification....

I've never said they don't exist. Just said that they should be hidden to make the player concern more about gameplay and less about carefully planed character improvements.

I never knew you were a crypto-Pythagorean.

Even if we did have the tech, we would still need the stats displayed, unless it was virtual tech that put our build limits into our real bodies. Its the only way we could know what we could or couldn't do.



Not crypto any longer apparently. :wink_smile:

I've played well over 1000 hours of Oblivion, spread over a couple of dozen characters. I never grind, never count skill increases, never try to maximize this or that attribute - I just travel with a character across Cyrodiil, watching as the character learns and grows and develops as an individual, and seeing what comes of it all.

Granted, that's not simple. Oblvion's leveling system is broken, so I had to figure out how to make character builds such that I could ignore all the numbers and just play the game. And that's just what I did. Now I ignore the numbers and just play the game.

The numbers are not and never were the problem - the broken leveling system is the problem. Putting the numbers "under the hood" wouldn't have accomplished anything with Oblivion - the leveling system still would've been broken. And it won't accomplish anything if Skyrim's leveling system is also broken.

Now - that said, there's nothing at all wrong with the basic concept of putting the numbers "under the hood." There still has to be ways to convey them to the player - such as Carl bulking up when he gets stronger - and there still has to be ways for the player to affect them - such as taking Carl to the gym in the first place. But so long as there's at least some representation of them and some way to affect them, sure - get the actual numbers out of the way. That's great.

The thing I object to, and the thing I was trying to address, is the recurring theme on this forum that numbers in games are bad and/or unnecessary. They're neither. They're entirely necessary and entirely neutral. They're just numbers - representations of measurements and percentages. They're neither good nor bad - they're just there. The only thing that can be good or bad is how the program succeeds or fails at manipulating them realistically.

Or you could do what anyone does in the real world, go outside and give objects an experimental lift to find out.

tbh, a system that completely auto-selects everything for you OR no matter what you do, you can still choose to level up otherswiese, would be best. So far I have not seen a single auto-level up rpg game, but fallout for example has the latter. No matter how many creatures you kill with guns, you can still level up your speech. Meaning, you don't have to be consirned about what you do and just do whatever you want. Actually, now that I think of it.. an auto level system prolly isn't such a brilliant idea after all.

man youre too stuborn or you just dont understand his point. he never said that removing numbers from the screen would fix the leveling system.

The point of removing numbers from the SCREEN :
1- Numbers distract players from playing their character how they feel it but rather makes them play according to their skills they have shown on the screen.
2- Defining your character by numbers on the screen is counter-immersive when you see that you feel that your character is just a game save progression. without numbers its closer to an actual character like you would see in a novel or a movie


@Xernac why do you even have to know beforehand if you can handle a task or not. its so counter-immersive to look at your stats and see in advance if you are able to do something or not. what you should do is see how well you made in other tasks previously made and take the risk or not to fail according to what you know. if you have numbers it just becomes algorithms rather than a game

Everything in computers is numbers, no way to get away from that. The only way to increase a stat is to increase the underlying number or numbers.

Except for that Oblivion already has lots of this features, you increase a skill by using it, killing a rat with a rusty knife will give you more experience with blades than doing a single hit to kill. Elder scroll does not use XP in the traditional sense, a good thing as it’s even more abstract than the stupid +5 attribute increase in Morrowind and oblivion.
Two examples from Fallout 3, first I needed to increase my science skill to hack a computer in a robotic factory, it was just a few points short so I fast travelled downtown and killed supermutants until I levelled up so I could increase my science skill. Later my small arms skill got high enough and I started putting skills into big guns and later energy weapons, as the skills got around 70 I started using the weapons I was skilled in but had hardly used.

All this is interesting but its not why bethesda changed things.

In the end the simple fact is betheada looked at how AVERAGE players played ob. What they actualy did.

1 Players hate it when they feel like they are losing potential hit points.. No hate isnt the right word.. They are mental about it.

2 Inventory space... people will do anything for more of it even things that ruin the game for them.

3 runspeed .... they dont react well to it at all.

4 loot loot and loot... people are looters.

5 fasion.. if you dont look the part you arnt the part. No matter how much you wana say so and so is a mage unless they can look the part they arnt one.

6 ugly is only ok in people you are killing. If you cant kill it it better not be ugly.

Bukowski

I half agree with you. It's true that hiding attributes/stats under the hood let's the player relax and enjoy the game, not having to worry about fine tuning numbers. But there is also the other angle: All those numbers are shown to the player so that he knows what his character is capable of. In reality we don't need those numbers shown to us because we already know them ("feel" them).

I don't know I would feel a little uncomfortable not seeing my character's progress somehow and not knowing how strong he is. Perhaps you're right and we would gradually get a "feel" about our character too.

I think that we all agree though, that removing necessary complexity (as in taking away attributes/stats that made sense) is a step back and should not be done in order to make it "easier" for the player to manage his character. If you want to make it easier for the player, just put them under the hood.