Yeah, I have to admit that I agree with you. I never play a BGS game without a major stats overhaul, so I just take that as a given...


You're right, attributes have been a problem for a few reasons: limited use, easy to max out, etc, and their removal may not have a big impact on gameplay, but I would have vastly preferred that they fix the system rather than strip it down. (I'm also not convinced that they actually removed them, though it's possible for some of them. Speed, for example, has to be in the game in some form.)

To be fair, most of my argument is from fear of mod limitations. But I do think it's reasonable to expect BGS to generally match (and steal!) the improvements the mod community has made for the next release in a given series. I think Skyrim should be as good or better than Oblivion + mods, and that's where I get skeptical.

Yet, again, we see an argument that is against the design of the system, and not the system itself.

Is chopping wood even going to do anything other than add an animation to the process of opening a container? So far that's all I've heard confirmed.
Same thing with mining.

Question:

Is buffoonery:
A. a skill?
B. an attribute?
C. a perk?
D. a stat meter?

It will help me rp being a lumberjack without the added value of exercise. Both me and my character. So it got that going for it.

I advocated redesigning it, if you would just read a little more before getting all crybaby and defensive. If my choices are 1) Leave attributes in as they are in Morrowind or Oblivion. Or 2) Remove them. I'm always going to pick 2. If I had the option 3) Redesign the attribute system to be meaningful and non-intrusive to the experience. I'd definitely go with 3.

Let's see how long it takes you to miss it this time.




Back before the Forum Overhaul, I had so many huge posts in the TES Ideas suggestions, but anyone who remembers that far back, can definitely say I was never advocating removal of attributes. Hell, most of the suggestions were how to improve their functionality and balance. Furthermore, I think two or three of my ideas were put into practice on a stats overhaul.

I'm very much Pro-Attributes, just not Pro TES attributes. Again, I know you get it, but a rather pesky fly doesn't seem to understand, the attribute system in Vanilla didn't lend itself to the game, more than it took away from the experience.

One thing I've learned to never doubt though, is the talent of the modding community for these games. Sure, it won't be out-of-the-box "perfect", but you can actually draw a conclusion with just how difficulty something as seemingly simple as "Attributes" is, by how long it takes to get a high-quality mod out.


Oblivion, I never cared for enough to look into mods. So I'm not sure what is exceptional, and what is just crybaby retaliation, but Skyrim definitely should be Better than New Vegas at least(Mechanically). I might be in a minority, who's looking for a game that feels more active than passive. Maybe that's why the Attribute issue isn't particularly important to me. The way I look at RPG elements, is they should enhance, but never enfeeble the player's base-line experience. If you know what I mean. In Morrowind, the "Base line" was set around a score of 40. Anything lower, and even the "Weakest" things were arbitrarily more evasive because of the die-roll. In New Vegas, you can pick up a Missile Launcher at 10 Explosives skill, and actually use it. It was about making the player feel in control, and I think that's just how Games should naturally progress, since they're an actively engaging medium. Not a passive one like Film or literature.

As a certified expert and widely respected Nth-dan black-belt in all of the well-respected (and several lesser known) schools of buffoon study, I'd like to interject with words of wisdom: "Both types. Country and western."

To provide contrast with the mind-blowing Zen nature of my previous statement, utilizing the vast and limitless powers of SCIENCE, I hereby declare that the buffoon stat is to be considered an attribute, as evidenced by a multitude of highly advanced research (forthcoming), and thus null and void in the bold new vistas of Skyrim, except where role-played otherwise in accordance with local laws and regulations.

Question: are you posting as Belanos too or did you just happen to miss something as I did? :hubbahubba:

As long as it comes with a sweet finishing move... :vaultboy:

And what exactly did I miss?

How can anyone possibly justify having wood-chopping as a skill in the game that you need to master? It would be completely pointless. It's going to be an activity you can take part in if you so choose, nothing more.

As pointless as a perk called "strong back." :teehee:



Hmmm...sounds like most other skills to me. :teehee:

The problem is that the system is so full of things like this that's there's really no point in even trying to hang on to it. Almost every mechanism in the game that attributes control can be handled in other, often far more logical, ways. If it was just a question of some tweaks here and there then fine. But whichever way you look at it, a major overhaul was in order. And they decided that is simply better to scrap it altogether and focus on something else instead.

Are you actually going to post something constructive or are you just trying to spam your post count higher?

I think a lot of people are being overly cynical about Bethesda. Yes, they want to make a profit. But that's not all they're after. There are lots of ways to make a profit, but they chose video games. It's not the easiest way to make money, but they chose it because they want to make video games. Moreover, they chose to make open-ended RPGs. They could make shooters instead, but they chose games like Fallout and TES. They don't just want to make money, they also want to make good games for their own sake.

There is no simpler way than to use a series of stat counters to simulate a series of basic character values. The less you have the less complex the interaction you can create. The more you have you get lost in the muddle and the individual values becomes meaningless. The issue is finding the proper balance in number (of attributes) and to determine the linkages. BGS did the first but never balanced the links. Fixing this would in no way require a "major overhaul."

Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread. Admoni has threadjacked it with stupidity.


I will say one more thing, especially in regards to the "Less character values the less complex interactions you can create", and how utterly moronic it is. Nothing is more complex than the nuance of the human interaction. By locking the player in with a set of "Rules" through stats, you effectively create a less complex system. After all, Die-roll mechanics started as a way to compensate for the lack in technology, that would have allowed for a better integration of human-game interaction. And that's just a fact.

As a mouthbreathing level 47 Buffoon with a +10 to Buffoon Juice perk I must protest this mischaracterization of my posts. :verymad:

Every one is very well thought out and precise. (just some major typos) :thumbsup:





*note to self* where are the mods re these guys? :confused: */note to self*

You've wasted enough of my time, welcome to my Ignore list.

That's fine. Just please don't make any more negative comments about other people. While I have a thick skin the mods seem to be a little tight around here.

Well, this is close enough to post limit just to close it after the last little exchanges.