Given all of the background and history about Caesar, it seems that he is MUCH more like Alexander the Great than he is like Julius Caesar. The implication of that aspect is that if Caesar dies, the most likely immediate result would be a Legion civil war as the various lieutenants sort out who is to assume the Top Dog position. Though the most notable subordinate to Caesar is Lanius, he's far too Tactical to be THE person in charge. (He makes a MUCH better pit bull for someone else than being the dog owner.) There's no mention of Caesar's offspring, so no hereditary heir to rise to the throne. Lucius might be able to make a bid, but I'd expect that not anyone outside of the Praetorians would support such a bid.

Anyway, it IS possible for Caesar to be dead before the Final Battle. My question is why does the Legion _still_ push for the dam, as opposed to (more logically) pulling back and sort out the answer to "Who's in charge?"

[Historical parallel] The Mongols were just moving into Europe and had pretty much obliterated Persia when back home in Mongolia/China the Great Khan died without a clear cut _single_ successor. Because of the Great Khan's death, the Mongolian expansion slammed on the brakes and pulled back, giving Europe the breather it needed to survive. Because the Mongolian Empire essentially fragmented, it never resumed the massive expansion program that had been going on.

By the time I got done the only major Legion leader left was Inculta...sneaky git was gone when Boone and I came for Caesar.

I doubt the Legion would retreat if the courier kills Caesar because they are already fully committed to taking the Dam and thier credibility would suffer if they withdraw with thier tails between thier legs after NCR "assassins" take out Caesar in the middle of his fortress. Lanius and Caesar's remaining advisors would most likely continue with the attack to both to avenge Caesar and to make sure the NCR was in no position to interfere in the process of selecting a new Caesar. The Mongols knew when they turned back East to choose a new Khan that no one was going to be following them....the Legion could not be sure what Elliot Oliver and Kimball would do. From what I saw of Elliot Oliver, he would probably attack in the hopes of racking up a decisive victory that would make him the next President.

...Elliot?

I don't recall any Elliot in the high echelons of the NCR army... There's General Oliver, Colonel Moore, Colonel Hsu, and Chief Hanlon...

Meant Oliver....I have no idea where that came from. lol

It could have been Lanius who suggest to fight for the Dam and use it to demonstrate that he, is the worthy successor.

Both Alexander's and Mongol empire is huge; the three state Caesar's Legion hold is nothing in comparison.

The thing about knocking off Caesar is that when you do so, you undoubtedly _also_ kill Lucius. Other major players in the Legion very likely were also killed (whatever his name was at Cottonwood Cove, for instance). About the only major Legion player that remains is Lanius -- who in Caesar's own words "has no love for the Legion; he fights for Caesar and ONLY Caesar." [I figure that Lanius would find out about Caesar's death at the same time that his own subordinate officers assassinate him. About the only reason that hasn't happened yet is because anyone that DID kill Lanius would in turn be executed by Caesar.]

what does happen if you kill caesar?

No discernible effect. The Legion is _still_ coming and the Second Battle of Hoover Dam WILL be fought. Gamewise, it has _zero_ effect on the plotline.

[When I attacked Caesar's camp at Fort Hill, I thought for sure I would discover, "Too bad for you, he has already departed the camp before you started your attack." <

If you had Boone with you when you kill Caesar, he'll tell you that the Legion already has a line of succession. If you work for Mr. House, he'll tell you that the Legion worships Caesar, they are all former tribals after all, and will try to take the Dam because that was his last wish but that eventually the Legion will fall into infighting and crumble.

There are also other minor changes, like the end of the Return to Sender questline.

I thought one strange thing about the Legion was that Caesar appointed Lanius as successor. I think this is one of the worst things about how they're portrayed in the game really. Caesar mentions that Lanius doesn't care for the Legion itself, but is incredibly loyal to Caesar. So where would that leave us? It seems to imply that Caesar is therefore more concerned with keeping his own legacy alive after he's dead rather than the Legion is successful or not. I think this ultimately really weakens the faction in terms of interesting moral ambiguity and all that.

I really wish they had created the Legion and Caesar as to be more caring about the lands itself, pushing the point that they really want to *create* something even through their very brutal tactics. Instead, they seemed to settle for it really just being a warband set to destroy things because one man tells them to. There is so much wasted potential there, especially in how it could juxtaposed against the NCR. It scratches the surface, barely, but it never goes deep enough for the Legion to feel like a viable choice to anyone except a psychopath character.

Of all of Caeser's leutenients, the only one I would be afraid of would be Inculta Vulpsis (sp?). He would have the cunning to kill off any of his rivals and knew (knows) all of the weaknesses of the NCR. Given two to five years to consolidate his power, and he would be more of a threat to the NCR than Caeser is (would be).

A cunning foe might make peace wtih the NCR, and attempt to corrupt them from the inside out.

I don't think that the news of Caesar's assassination by the courier would trigger a immediate attempt on Lanius......he's held in fear and awe by everyone and whoever does it (if they succeed) would probably be torn apart by the Legionary rank and file as a co-conspirator with the Courier. And if they fail....no doubt Lanius will dispatch them in some hideous and creative manner and they know it. It's also unwise to kill your best general right before the climix of the Legion's greatest campaign.

Decapitating the Legion by killing Caesar and his top lieutenants...including Lanius...would not have a immediate effect, but would lead to the dissolution of thier Empire in the next few years as the regional commanders began fighting to ascend the Throne themselves and the more recently conquered tribes made a bid to win back thier freedom. If Lucius, Inculta, or Lanius survive they may be able to build up a cult around the dearly departed Caesar in time to hold things together.....they all have to be killed to make it count in the long term.

I agree. I think the writing team either really dropped the ball on the Legion in a way that they didn't anywhere else in the game, or else they had to cut a lot of content out to make the release date set by Bethesda.

Caesar claims to want to help mankind rebuild, but leaves Lanius as his successor. That shows he isn't fit to rule a Taco Bell, let alone the western US.

I killed Caesar (and everyone else in the Fort/Cottonwood Cove) before I even made it to the Strip, Caesar had the chip on him. I thought about what to do after that, but from a role playing point of view, but GAME OVER, since the whole point was to get back the chip. I might return to that character and see if Benny is still around and finish the main quest.

That was really fun, BTW: Riot shotgun run-n-gun around the tents in the lower compound. His tent was a bit hairy though. I shot forward the instant I entered the tent, and he was the first to die. Had about a dozen hit points left at the end.

I _did_ have Boone with me; he never said a word during the aftermath. (I kept expecting him to say something like, "I enjoyed that! Can we do it again?")


How did you get to Fort Hill? I swam the entire East shore of the Colorado below Hoover Dam and couldn't find anyplace where you could get to the upper plateau above the cliffs. In two run-throughs I had to wait to wait until I received an invitation from Caesar to visit him, and in both cases, the invite didn't materialize until I had been on the Strip for awhile.

I was in the lake for the bomber thing. From there, you can swim directly across and get up the hill there. You still have to go through the upper gate.

I feel they could have fleshed out more of Roman society besides just the brutal fighting style. They missed out on so much, and the dirty pits and sad little fort shows they really didn't want to push the idea of a Post-apocyliptic Roman society. This a shame, because Caesar's entire empire seems to be focused on war, but he has no infrastructure, or plans after.

I very much agree. It's almost like the full sum and total of Caesar's strategy is, "Once we have EVERYBODY united under my banner, _then_ we will have peace and prosperity and we can commence the rebuilding of actually civilized civilization!" The problem is, there is ALWAYS another tribe, city, or nation on the other side of your most recent conquest. Ergo, the "rebuilding of civilization will NEVER get started.

That's odd....when Itook Boone to clear Caesar's camp afterward he said that it wouldn't stop the Legion...or probably even slow it down...but "killing that [censored] in the heart of his own fortress" was quite a stunt and he was glad he had been part of it.

I just swam out to where the bomber is, then continued to the far shore. To the East, there's a boom near Camp Guardian which can NOT be traversed. To the West, there is another boom that parallels Hoover Dam, which also can NOT be traversed. I swam the entire shore from boom to boom and there is NO place on the shore where I was allowed to ascend to the upper plateau. There's a point near a radio tower that has a slope that seems like it could be traversed, but any movement upward turns into lateral movement instead.

So that makes the entire East and South shore of Lake Mead, plus the entire East shore of the Colorado River that I've explored, with NO place where a character can climb to the upper plateau. [There's also a line of impassable terrain that runs from Bitter Springs to Camp Guardian, so it's impossible to cross the ridge and come down East of the Camp Guardian boom.]

Did you, perhaps, use a console command to move up the slope?