Luck=/=Skill. Yes, your argument is weak.

:rofl:

I guess I should have clarified that this...

...is a weak argument.

Bottom line: Skills really define who you are, not attributes.

But your not Born with skills...and obviously your character was somebody before they were in prison as far as the game goes they were already defined :shrug: a guy walks into a car dealer ship with a plain white shirt on and Sandales asking to buy a car, the reps don't know he has money out the ass and runs a law firm just by looking at him, they don't know squat beyond he's a guy with medium build, toned arms and a interesting smile.


Characters in game don't define you as the dude whos really good with Axes or say hey your Good with swords (having only seen you enter the town 3 minutes earlier) a Master even, can you do so and so for me?

Clearly they both define who you are. Are you really making this argument?

Possible Replacements
Agility: Stamina, Archery, Security, Sneak
Endurance: Health, Stamina
Intelligence: Magicka (absolutely a replacement), Conjuration, Alchemy, Enchanting
Personality: Speechcraft, Illusion
Speed: Stamina, Health, Sprinting ability
Strength: Stamina, Health, One-handed, Two-handed, possibly Hand to Hand (unconfirmed skill)
Willpower: Magicka, Stamina, Alteration, Destruction, Restoration

Luck, to me, should remain a random and undefined concept.

Yes, I know, I've heard the argument. All stat systems are going to be stilted by their nature, but explain to me why it is more desirable to have a highly contrived system (where attribute effects are shoehorned under a skill label) than a slightly contrived system (where attributes are attributes and skills are skills).

bull pucky. skills determine how good you are with the weapons and actions and are not exclusivly what determines what type of character you play. skills do if you only role play as a character that sticts to only using their skills and has no back story or physical/mental depth to them. it leaves out all kinds of important details, imagine a novel where all you knew about the main character was that he was good with a sword r insert weapon or skill: and not what kind of person he was, or what his goals or faults are. what moral choices will he make, will he succeed at his endevor or will he self sabotage. these are all things that skills cant define.



and it is as far as your concerned (assuming you never touched luck) if you leave luck alone thats exactly what happens, random and undefined loot. its only when you improve luck above its base does it add more dynamacy to teh game. its really a lame arguement that things should be cut from a game because you don't care for them and inspite the fact that there are many who do.

I'm not the only one that doesn't care. But neither of us can determine with any degree of accuracy the exact percentages (or numbers) of people who do and don't care about attributes; neither of us is telepathic, after all. It doesn't really matter what any of us think, Skyrim will not have the 8 traditional attributes. Arguing will not accomplish anything. Accept it OR don't. It doesn't really matter to me. The game will be awesome, either way.

it was never bethesda's intention to reward one group of people and exclude the other no matter how popular, until now they found a way so that it was possible for every one to be happy unless that person was determined to hate the game period. reducing your argument to; they picked our point of view so shut up because it will be the best game evar, contributes nothing. if you don't agree with the topic/ point of the discussion then don't take part in it rather than devalueing the opinions and point of view of those who do want to discuss it.

Let's just say that the last three sentences (and this guy :dance:) in my previous post were an unusual attempt at humor (I've crossed them out). With that in mind, I didn't mean to devalue the opinions of another group. This "discussion" is nothing more than an argument that will most likely have no effect on the development of the game (as it is already made without attributes in mind). This whole thread seems pointless unless one side can provide undeniably factual proof that attributes are either needed or not needed; this is impossible, as we don't know Bethesda's exact plan for replacing attributes. Let's wait for some more info before we start the real discussion. There, is that better?

my grounds for saying that attributes will be needed is primarily based on that system is how I create my characters period and not having them by default is detrament to my enjoyment of the game, and secondarily there was nothing gamebreaking about attributes in OB as people are saying now long after OB, they never complained about these things they cite as reasons attributes were useless until literally after it was announced they were gone.

it will be possible to mod them back in with the CK, so what ever I say is in the context that I expect to someday play SK with attributes, we know that they are modable is because the game had attributes to begin with but they changed their mind somewhere in the middle of development (later or earlier maybe) and they always release the tool with which they make their games, so unless they diliberatly make it impossible for modders to put attributes back in they can be put back in.

glad to know you aren't trying to devalue other peoples opinions so I will appologize for suggesting it. I think I need to take a break from these topics actually because I try my best to keep it civil but i'll be damned if I never saw somthing divide the community like this. cheers.

Exactly, just mod them in if you want them (and are a PC gamer). I'm a PC gamer that doesn't use mods because I prefer a "pure" gaming experience. But other PC gamers are free to mod, obviously.



Cheers, mate.

I forgot to mention that is quite possible for multiple characters who start differently and proceed along completely different career paths will end up with 100 in most attributes at higher levels, thus negating their purpose in the long run. That was one of my complaints when I first played the game years back.

If the game was not designed around maximum base attribute values I would not have complained. That is just a faulty system.

There's really nothing "pure" about Oblivion's crappy combat and low-quality textures. Try modding, it'll make for a different experience and who knows, you just might have more fun.

The joy is in the journey, not in the destination...

If they went with a system where all attribute improvements post character creation could only be made indirectly, through related skill increases, then I can't really see this being a problem.

The problem lies in the fact that my characters all had 100 intellect, endurance, willpower, agility, strength without really trying and I was still in the journey phase of the game.

EDIT: Maybe I just played the game wrong.

The problem with past systems is that you could get 100 in everything (attributes and skills) with fairly little effort. This can be largely fixed when you limit attributes by major (and to a lesser extent minor) skill level, which engenders distinctive characters and unique play-throughs.

Also make them static and chosen at the beginning. Similar to the Fallout system.

I would say for there to not be attribute maximums, but under the TES system where characters start with larger values in skills that your character prefers would actually lead to having less potential in desired attributes than others. Like a warrior who chose all of the weapon skills would have less strength potential than a mage.... which is kinda lame.

I don't think it should be entirely static. I think the organic evolution of stats in TES is a system worth preserving. I do think Attributes should be far less mobile than they have in the past, but there should still be room for improvement.

-----

How much happier I would be if we were all here discussing the ideal implementation of certain stat systems rather than whether or not to implement them at all.

There should be ways to raise it in small increments, or through extensive measures. Also through temporary methods, magic, potions etc. But they should be picked in the beginning without a way to max them out (at least at character creation). Its the logical thing to do with attributes. Especially since attributes were effected so poorly by OB level scaling. Also make them do more, add checks etc.

I actually really enjoy vanilla Oblivion. I don't care what the combat is like. The textures are quite lovely on my PC, btw.

Removing the attributes from the game certainly has the potential to make it harder to balance.

Still, I agree for removing it for a few reasons:

- Luck: It seems silly that a persons luck is an 'attribute'. Luck, in the end, ended up affecting the games in strange ways.

- Personality: This is something that should be based on choices made in dialogue or quests, not a stat.

- Intelligence: Ethical argument here. I never liked the idea that Orcs, Redguards, and Nords were typically 'stupid' according to the game. Again, intelligence should be based elsewhere

- Endurance: Most people pumped this stat to get HP bonuses. I'm happy not to grind spears/armorer to get +5 for this stat

- Strength, Agility, Speed: As for what these stats governed, Bethesda is handling the balance issues now. Here's hoping it works!

- Willpower: Negligible, it's effects can easily be assimilated

I'd say the opposite. Attributes had the potential to be rather volatile depending on how exploited they were (inadvertently or not). A character that pumps up Endurance early then works on Strength, will come out much differently then a character that worked on Strength early then worked on Endurance, for example. This is further differed depending on whether you had x1, x2, x3, x4, or x5 modifiers. Encounters would need to be balanced so that regardless of what you did (pumped Luck early to make yourself better at everything, pumped Endurance early with 5x modifiers to get massive health, forwent them and instead picked Intelligence with x3 modifiers for lots of magicka, or Strength with x1 modifiers for minor strength boosts), it wouldn't turn out too hard or too easy.