Loose your touch or gain it.
BGS can give us a simple but powerful tool to add new flavors to the character leveling system.

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Character leveling has always been one of my main concerns with TES series and I have always had a lot of ideas to improve them, but the released information of the current method used in Skyrim does seem a lot better than the previous methods, and has reduced my concern in this era a lot.

But it does not mean that I do not have new ideas for Skyrim.

We know that initial character classes and attributes are out and IMHO this is good news, as it removes the artificial bounds on our characters and our activities, and remove the reasons to grind and power-game.

And we know about how we gain levels and how it encourages us to specialize, but it is not completely true and specialization only increases the speed of level progression and with some patience, we can still make our omnipotent jack of all trade characters, skill-wise, if not perk-wise.

The TES leveling method always encouraged this approach and in Skyrim, a big part of the problem still remains.

Lower level skills DO still progress a lot faster than higher level skills, so you can abandon some skills, and any time you can return to them and speedily increase them to reach the other skills, and the higher level skills have lowered progression rates, so it is still encouraged to become jack of all trades, a bit, as the cost is not much.

The normal human beings are always better with what they currently do and if they want to try some other action which is completely different with the actions that they are actually good, they start slow with new ones, and gradually gain momentum with them, especially with the actions that are totally different with their current specializations.

So for instance if I am good at physical actions, I can learn new physical actions sooner than new mental ones, and wise versa.

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I fear there would be a bit of technical info in the lines, but for a quick and simple view of what is coming, I like to quote a friend:


Yes, with this tool, mods can alter the skill progression rates for different skills as layered effects that would not conflict with each other and a mix of all those effects is applied to the core leveling system.

As for the technical info, they are there to show that this idea is not just a whim and IMHO relatively quite easy to implement with a great result.

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Here I wanted to suggest a variation of the current confirmed character progression method, and I will suggest it later, but for now, I thought better of that, and I just suggest to them to give us a simple and easy to develop tool, that would give us all the power we need to develop any variation of the current character leveling that we like to have, regarding the progression rates, and the like.

And I would give examples of what can be done with this system, and maybe they like them and implement them internally, or they might just give us the tool, so that we could develop them ourselves.

And as I have been a programmer myself, I can guess that this tool would not need more than a few days to develop, and would give us a very versatile tool to develop our flavor of character leveling method.

So here it goes.

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Let's start simple, and develop on that:

We can have an array of 18 floating point numbers, (real number as opposed to integer), that get multiplied to the amount of skill gains each time we do an action that would result in our skill gains, one element of the array for each skill.

This array can reside in memory and two simple script functions can give the modders access to the array, one to check an element value and other to change that value.

So in the real time the modders can change the value related to a skill, from 1.0 to any number above or below 1.0, to increase or decrease the amount of that skill's progression rate.

So after that, the skill could advance in an increased or decreased rate, and we can reset the progression rate, by setting the value to 1.0.

Each time the game starts it can fill the array with 1.0 s and let modders change them after that.

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Using this tool, I can make a mod that would introduce a new character leveling method that in one integrated formula addresses all the above mentioned problems, and become as natural, believable, and enjoyable as possible.

In this method, your race defines your initial specialization, but early on you can easily mold your character as you like, but the more your character grows and specializes, the more fixed it becomes and the more time it takes to alter your specialization, but it would never become impossible, only more time consuming.

So if you want to become a spell caster, you are better off if you select a race which is better spell caster, but if you select an Orc for example, then you'd better start to practice spell casting as soon as possible before it becomes too late to alter your brute nature.

And it would be a challenge of sorts to make characters that are not compatible with the initial choice of the race, but an interesting one.

I would use a formula in which your level affects the rate of your skill progressions, but it should affect the lower skills more than the higher level skills, so I would suggest the following formula as the initial mold, but I might change it a bit later on:

Skill Progression Rate (SPR) = A * ( B + Skill_Level ) / (B + Skill_Level + C * Character_Level )

OK, typically the coefficient A should be a bit larger than 1.0, so it affects the skill progression rate of earlier levels positively.

B would be the softening effect for the formula, so the higher rates for B would decrease the effect of the formula, and the "Aging" effect of the character.

On the other hand, C would affect the effect of the character level on the aging formula, and I would play with the numbers to reach a good result, and would give the players the option to change them as they like.

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This would add a great tool for the modders, but could not support more than one mod at a time, so how can we eliminate the conflicts between different mods.

Because for instance I might want to add the aging effect for the characters, but another mod might want to alter the skill teaching mechanism so that each lesson do not increase the skills instantly and only give a boost to the skill progression rate of that skill for a while and reduce the boosted rate gradually until it returns to the normal rate.

Another mod might add the similarity effect between skills, and similar skills affect the progression rate of each other positively and affect non-similar skills negatively.

And another mod might want to provide a soft cap over each skill mastery level until we find a proper tutor for that skill, and convince him/her to accept us as a trainee, so after we reach to level 25 in a skill, our progression rate of that skill would start to fall progressively after that level, until we find a journeyman of that skill, (or higher level teacher), and convince him to accept us as an apprentice.

After that our progression rate would revert to normal for that level, and this would happen again for the next levels of mastery and so on...

In fact I had planned to add all the above effects in a single mod called DICE for oblivion, but I dropped the project, and I might tell you why, in the end of this post.

Another mod might want to add a realism effect and decrease the progression rate of mental skills when you need sleep, and decrease the progression rate for physical skills when you need nourishment, and so on...

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So how can we eliminate the conflict between the mods?

We can have more than one "Skill Progression Rate Factor" array, SPRF array, and tag each array by the name of its effect, so one array can be called "Aging" effect, and another one can be called "Tutor" effect, and another one can be called "Mastery" effect, and another one can be called "Realism" effect, and so on...

A mod can check if there is a SPRF array tagged "Aging", and if so then get a hook to that array if available, or create a new SPRF array, if not currently available, and check or alter its elements after that.

As the game starts, there are no SPRF arrays, but at the initialization stages, the mods can add their arrays, and keep a hook for each of them, and work on those arrays in the run time.

There is no need to save those values in the save games, and there is no need to alter anything in the current game, except adding the system to manage those SPRF arrays and five scripting language functions.

• A function to check to see if an SPRF array is already made, by another mod probably, and get access to its hook.
  
• A function to make a new tagged SPRF array and fill it with 1.0 s and give a hook for the new one to the modder.
  
• A function to dismiss a hooked SPRF array.
  
• A function to check the value of an SPRF array element.
  
• A function to alter the value of an SPRF array element.

And each time that the value of an element in an SPRF array is changed, they have to multiply the values of all the elements of that index in all the current SPRF arrays and keep the result in another array, and multiply the value in that resulting array with the skill gain of each skill as we are advancing our skills by actions.

That's all and nothing more is needed, and the rest can be done by modders.

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Here I wanted to tell the detailed tale of how I suggested such a system to the OBSE team, and how they initially accepted the suggestion, and how one other guy in the forums talked them out of it, and how this resulted in the complete loss of my already decreasing interest in Oblivion, so that as a result, I dumped my last projects "Dynamic Danger Zone" and "DICE" for Oblivion.

But that's over now, and I moved forward, and now I have my full sight and attention focused on the next game, Skyrim, and if they provide us with this nice tool, we all can easily add our different flavors to the character development system.

Edit: Reverted to the original fonts, because some people had difficulty reading it, but for myself, Verdana is a great font.

Because of the perks it will matter how you specialize in the beginning

The technical computer programming terms are mostly unnecessary. The developers will know what to do if they decide to implement such a system. Write it in layman's terms and you'll get more feedback from the people who would actually read this.

I might look at it later.

Most of it is not in technical terms and only descriptions, and you can skip the few more technical parts if you like.

I'm just saying, you're going to lose a lot of casual readers as soon as they hit "We can have an array of 18 floating point numbers..."

Which is conveniently prefaced by "Let's start simple..."

Congratulations on sharing your opinion with one of the longest posts I've ever seen. I'm sure something will come of it, and you will not look back upon this as a complete waste of time. I'm sure someone out there cares

My question: why go so in depth? It's not like anyone will implement your idea...

If you actually read it, he was talking about making a tool for modders to use, not for the devs to implement his leveling system into the game.

I actually think there are some great ideas in there and its good to see some kind of dissuasion from power-game.

:D

That seemed simple enough for me. Sorry.


Exactly. :goodjob:

A tool, which IMHO would not need more than a week of a single programmer's time in the developer team, if not less, and would give modders a powerful, versatile, and conflict free tool to give character leveling system, their own flavors, as they like, and the system apply a combination of their effects to the actual system.

Who pays attention to levels? This is not an MMO.

Sorry, I did not get your meaning.

I was talking about skill progression rate here.

You always come up with complicated stuff. Start simple and work from there. I would have loved to see your mods and how they would have worked in reality.

But here:
nGCD, automates leveling, multiple influences and weights, all customizable
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14065

Progress, skill rates, all customizable
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14304

Skill Decay, real lose it or gain it
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=36313

:)

Yeah, I know.

But with the system that I have just suggested, all those mods would become simplified to managing the elements of a few SPRF arrays, and the system would do the rest.

And there would be room for any other innovation in this era, with little potential conflicts.

And I mean it, really.

Despite the fact that I don't have the experience/knowledge necessary to accurately comment on whether your request is reasonable and valid, I do have enough common sense about me to understand the gist of what you're saying, and that block of ideas, which I quoted above spoke volumes to me, so if what you propose will help modders better design a balanced system that can properly accommodate and factor in all of those ideas at once and create the desired in game results, even if they are implemented through various mods at the same time, then I'm all for your idea.

That's right, and I'm suggesting a system that could potentially eliminate the conflicts between different mods that want to add their flavors to the Skyrim's vanilla leveling systems, by affecting skill progression rates.

:thumbsup:

Agreed.

Nevermind that I stopped reading when a comment about "starting off simple" was immediately followed by something about arrays of 18 floating somethingorothers. If that's simple, I'd hate to see the cluster of eggheads it takes to comprehend the complex part.

I know, I know, but if you had skipped the more technical parts, you could have reached the more interesting parts, like Wyatt Hertz.

Those parts I have included in order to convince any developers who might happen to read this thread, that those ides are not just a whim, and are actually simple to implement.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Simplified version:

First, he wants to be able to affect and alter the progression rates of all the skills (how fast they advance), but he wants to be able to layer these multiple factors so that more than one factor is influencing those progression rates at the same time.

Factors include:

-Aging (you can't teach an old dog new tricks) the longer you ignore a skill the harder it becomes to increase it later on, which would go against Skyrim's vanilla system.
-Don't use a well developed skill for awhile; then maybe you begin to lose some of the progression you already achieved with it, or at the very least it has less of an effect on your character's overall growth when you finally do start using it again.
-Similar skills will allow for faster progression. If you've already trained hard with a sword, then when you pick up an axe for the first time, you will gain levels faster with it, because of the fact that you have already studied hard with a sword.
-Your skill advancement will peak and plateau at certain predetermined levels (25, 50, 75, etc.) and require you to seek out the aid and apprentice under an in-game trainer of higher level(journeyman, master, etc.) before further advancement is realized through that skill's use.
-Having not slept in awhile will slow the rate of progression when using intelligence based skills.
-Having not eaten in awhile will slow the rate of proggression when using physical skills.
-Training with a trainer will not increase your skill level, but instead it will give a boost to that skill's rate of progression for a limited amount of time after training.

The possibilities are plenty and the list goes on and on, but what Sphagne wants is the proper programming, or a more efficient tool that is a part of the creation kit that can balance and layer all of those effects at the same time and apply them in the proper circumstances of the game, as well as a way for mods that alter skill progression in conflicting ways to be able to be used at the same time....I THINK.

I could be wrong, and feel free to correct my interpretation, if I am.

You lost me as soon as you mentioned technical terms

I just scaned over the rest of the stuff (yes to me technical stuff, is just stuff), but did pick up on the race effecting the speed of some skills.

That I quiet liked.

I was never one for attribute/skill caps for different races as this would limit my options, but leveling speed effected by race is great, I could still level less likely skills for some races (sneak for Orc's as an example) but this would be painfully slow.

I'm sorry, but this weird font you're using is making it extremely hard for me to look at what you've typed, OP.

Quite right, except for one of your examples, which resulted in reducing the skills not affecting their progression rated, which is possible, but not related to this tool.

And yes, I suggest adding a simple to create and use tool that gives the modders a powerful option of adding layered effects and flavors to the progression rates of different skills, so that a combined mix of those effects is applied to the vanilla leveling system of Skyrim with little chance of conflicts between the mods.


Yes, if they provide us the tool, adding the effect so that the initial race selection could affect the progression rates of the skills related to the race would be easy, as an initial fading effect, or through out the whole game.


Reverted to the original fonts. Sorry.

tc;rbdru (to confusing read but didnt really understand)

but from what i gained it looks like you are suggesting a more constantly training monk type of progression and that sounds cool. really i liked what you suggestions but the thing that usuualy irritates me with things that include degradation of anything is that it is simulated way to fast (farcry two weapon degrade anyone)

so what is the proposed time of non-use to skill loss ratio?


also if they went with something like this then you could put to use all the practice dummies and archery targets in the game. got a quest where you know its gonna be close quarters go practice with your sword.

also on that note maybe if the skills had two levels to them like the base level and the practiced level. your one handed would be 50 but if you use it a lot it could "get hot" and boost up to 55 and at the highpoint of the "hot streak" you would gain one more basel point(thereby moving your "hot-cold streak" up a bracket. while at the same time if you didnt use it for a few ingame weeks then the next time u pulled it out it would start at a 40 and work its way back up all the while your base level does not actualy move untill you hit the max hot streak.

this way if i want to use different weapons but not go up in levels it would still be possible

Great ideas as always and presented in Theseus form. Hard for the casual observer to comprehend but even harder for the technically minded to dismiss. As usual I support your ideas, they're top notch. :thumbsup:

Thanks pal, as English is not my first language, My text tends to become a bit incomprehensible at times.

I was thinking about a way to add back the attributes to the game in a way that would not result in their previous problems causing the players to power game.

The I thought the best way is to add them back like in Fallout 3, so that they would remain almost constant throughout the game, but have their effect in your game, and define the style of your character in a definite way, without causing distraction of thinking about their development.

So I thought they can either define your aptness in your skill development, so a character of higher "Wisdom/Willpower" could have higher rate of skill progression in "Destruction", "Restoration" and Alteration, and so on...

Or they can place a soft cap over your skill progression, so if you have a more agile character, when your rate of progression of "Archery", "Sneak" and "security" would not start to drop as you advance those skills, and you could advance them to high levels, before they become too hard to advance.

But on a less agile characters, those skill would become a drag at expert levels for instance before reaching the master levels, so that increasing them after that would become really hard.

And this can apply to other attributes as well, and their related skills.

All these ideas can be implemented quite easily if such a system that I have described in OP, is given to us, which would be quite easy to develop by the developers who have full access to the code.