? That's nice? And has nothing to do with what I said.

I gave you enough examples of lots of reasons why meta-values of a human-being could not be measured into strength, intelligence, wisdom etc. You just gave me a statement saying that "All items of personal value can be grouped together into some sort of meta-value." with nothing to base it on.
Strong is a practical word for "Good in a specific physical activity." and an intelligent person is not a person who knows everything in the world, but possesses great knowledge in certain areas. A wise person is powered by logic, when you say "Wise" you mean he knows his way in life through several areas, some can be street-smart while others are strategic-smart like in chess. WHICH MEANS THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS ATTRIBUTES but measures to certain and specific areas of expertise.

You said that if they would keep the Morrowind level of graphics everything would be more complex and deeper.
Following this, they should also keep the Morrowind level of voice acting as that would also free more resources and following your twisted logic, would create an ever better game...

Well thats factually incorrect and pretty misleading.

Changes since the last TES:

Added:
-Perks. 18 trees, 280. Cap of 50. All examples so far amazing. Beats TES3/4 uniqueness and specialization capabilities..
-Finishing moves
-Dual Wield
-More sense of culture and Town Economy
-Superior crafting + non skill based jobs (mining/cook/farm/etc.)
-More armor and weapons than Oblivion
-Dynamic Casting and More Spell Variation: Finally, PBAOS, GLYPHS, and SPRAYS.
-Sprint System
-Radiant Story/AI/Quest (combine these for you, so the added list isn't TOO big :whisper: )
-More dungeon variation and real puzzles in them again
-Handmade open world, unlike generated TES4 areas
-Dragon Shout System: , another layer of combat on top of magic/melee/bow? Probably good but who knows. The examples so far are EPIC.
-Factions return: "The return of factions, but “different than what we’ve done before…"
-Body Customization and more Variation in Races
-New Speech system: (can walk around)
-3D item in inventory viewing system:
-50 levels this time, but in the same amount of time. Results in 2x the level up choices
-Carriage system: , don't care about fast travel debates..but all those hardcoe RPG guys should be happy.



Removed.
-Attributes - (actually moved, not removed - but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt)
-Spell creation - (unconfirmed, but dynamic casting and dw spells probably will be better...who knows?)
-3 less skills - derp, you got me here. Acrobatics and Athletics(cough sprint) gone.
-birthsigns (probably taken care of in perks)

If it means more dialog and branching dialog trees, then yes it does - provided, of course, that the dialog is well written. What's not to agree with that?

Everything Bethesda removed I agree with entirely. It's their game, they know what the [censored] they're doing. (Most of the time.)

Jesus, if some of you people were creating Skyrim, it'd be Oblivion 2. Hell no to that.

We have better systems than in Morrowinds hay day, also stop quoting me, you never say anything substantial, or you just post false information and try to argue. Not to mention Id rather read than hear the same voice actor for every other character.

There are two of us then...

Once again, I'll say, based on completely nothing.
Don't misinterpet the things I'm saying, developing games doesn't work like that. Even if they did make a game with Morrowind's graphics, they could NEVER make a game as large as Daggerfall, because it has NOTHING to do with graphics. Daggerfall had a huge world, which is impossible to create unless it's an empty world that lacks details, has almost the exact same environment and is created almost 100% randomly.
In order to create such a game which would look decent enough they would've had to invest a minimum of 10 years of development (take World of Warcraft for example).

I take it as you have absolutely no game-developing experience. I do, so don't throw around false facts so that other people may agree with you and by that fill their heads with bad information. If you know something, say it, if you guess it, state that it's simply your opinion and that you could be wrong. But don't go around standing on that position even though I know for a fact it's not true (check before posting such things, that's what I'm trying to say here...)

And what I meant to say was that if Beth were interested in money, they would've invested a greater amount on graphics, which they haven't, as you see all those "I can't believe the game looks so lame!" topics all around this forum. As for me, I think this game has great graphics, could've been done better, but that's only a reassurance that they're investing in so many areas, and really wanted to seize the maximum out of the old consoles.

I know what Im talking about, apparantly you dont. You dont have to make a game as physically big as Daggerfall, but a game with the same depth and content size wise. todds PR talk pretty much cmes across as them trying to placate newbs, so that fact stands as well.

Different people are born with differences in strength, intelligence, etc, hence the need for attributes as a form of measurement or data on a person's attributes. "Smarter" people (aka intelligent people) tend to understand certain things or grasp certain concepts faster than those with an average level of intelligence. The reason why the other guy said that your first two sentences don't make sense is because you're contradicting yourself.

So no comment on the fact that Skyrim adds 5x the amount than what it removes?

You talking to me? You were on ignore, but here: How much did you know we were going to lose from Dagger to Morrow, or from Morrow to OB? You didnt. Like you dont know now what we'll lose, just like I dont know if we'll lose or gain until the game comes out. We have lost more though over the years. hence the reason I didnt respond and made my initial comment.

I agree with you in all aspects. Stamina, health and magicka are measurable... the things attributes covered are not. Makes sense in many ways why the game has been "simplified"

Come on...I am talking constructs and you are gibbering on about minor details. There are many people that have little understanding of system design. By your statements you are one of them. Unfortunately, it is what I do for a living. Your statement above is comparable to someone trying to explain to me that there is no such thing as mathematics (or trig, calculus, differential equations, etc.) because there exist things such as numbers, plus signs, and minus signs. You are telling me that cities don't exist because it is the streets and houses that are "real."

There are all "real" constructs that are used for very real and very important reasons. They help us group, quantify, and make sense of an infinite amount of minutiae in simple ways. This is attributes. If you are unable to understand why something like this would be so important for design....well....all I can say is I sure as heck hope you are not involved in this game...(but, if you are.... it would explain a lot about the things we are hearing...)

The importance of attributes for gaming is best described by drawing. Take a sheet of paper. Draw large circles in the following order:

1. center of page - (write in attributes, then list: attribute 1, attribute 2, ... attribute n)
2. left of 1 above - (write in stats, then list: health, magicka, ... stat n)
3. above 1 - (write in derived values: balance, sight, regen rate, speed, jump height, ... derived value n)
4. right of 1 - (write in skills: one handed, destruction, lock pick, ... skill n)

Now, draw three arrows. Each going from the center circle to one of the outlying circles.

Last, draw a dotted circle around skills and inside that write perks.

All you have left is to create the connections that determine the interactions. A few base values in attributes can be used to guide and govern the whole of the simulated character. It is as simple a design as you can get that allows for infinite complexity.

Now...your turn....explain to me in a similar format that I used above how what you are talking about looks like as a system. While I am very full of myself I am more than willing to admit that I am wrong. If what you come up with is good I will gladly admit it (and maybe steal it for my own nefarious ends). Please, pretty please, I eagerly await.

Cheers...off to enjoy my holiday... :foodndrink:

Great OP, Varus, and some good discussion. (Mixed in with the inevitable bickering.)

Some responses to the conversations, in no particular order:

• Attributes. I really felt like something was lost there until I read the thread. Your point about attributes merely being reflections of "stuff we can do" (e.g. running vs. rowing: who has more endurance?) was very well taken. I feel much better about this "loss" now. Thanks!
  
  
• Starting characters. I have read, multiple times, that at the beginning you choose a race and gender and tweak your appearance and then you're off. No mention of picking skills or starting with a few Perks (though some may be attached to races). Starting off with strengths and weaknesses is certainly not dependent on attributes nor classes; there are plenty of other ways we could be allowed to have some distinctiveness at the beginning. But from what I've seen, I don't think that is happening. I fully expect to basically be let out of prison, escape or whatever, being a flatline average member of my race. Pull off my diapers and start doing stuff at level 1 to begin development towards actually being something by level 2. I can live with this, but I'm sad about it. All my characters have backstories, and I just have to pretend that my fighter already has some experience with or at least aptitude for swordplay. I can pretend, but a gameplay mechanic would be better.
  
  On a related note, I fully expect that all characters will start off with a couple simple spells. This is good for my mage, but bad for my magiphobic barbarian.
  
  
• Athletics/Acrobatics. I don't know what is planned re: Perks or whatever, but I certainly hope that I can have some characters be more athletic than others. I want my Bosmer thief bounding and scrambling over the rocks with much greater ease than my studious mage. Todd made that oft-quoted joke about "Who says, 'I'm going to make a character who can't run?'" Dude! I totally do.
  
  
• Mysticism. Although mechanically I guess the spells are still there, to me this is a huge sentimental loss. I always loved specializing in the school that was the most subtle and weird and the least understood. Also, in another thread, Xarnac pointed out that Mysticism actually has a fairly rich history in the lore. It's not my intention to start an argument about it again, but in "soft" (non-mathematical) terms, something was definitely lost there.
  
  The good news? That loss has actually given me inspiration for a character: a Dunmer whose ancestors were die-hard Mystics, and who seeks to revive the art. Skyrim for him is just a pit stop on the way to the Isle of Artaeum to try to find the lost secrets of the Psijics. He'll pursue the weirdest spells from whatever colleges they were rolled into and develop his skills accordingly. His forbidden studies of the "lost school" are what got him sentenced to execution in the first place. Should be an interesting playthrough!

We might have different definitions of weapon type. I am talking about commonly available medieval weapon types that have gradually been winnowed out of TES: spears, crossbows, flails, etc. I do not count glass longsword and silver longsword as different weapon types. They are both longswords. Can you tell me which new weapon types are in (not being arguementative, I really don't know)?

I do agree that the perk system has huge potential. However, I first saw it used as the answer to reduced skills, then as the answer to no attributes, and then ... what? What else is going to be replaced by perks?

Quite Frank I don't see this "variety of weapons" people are going on about at the moment.


Swords, Spears, Crossbows, Throwing weapons, Bow's, Polearms, are what Variety in weapons represent.


there were only two weapons types in Oblivion, weapons you swing and bows.....Done. :shrug: and at the moment nothing suggests it will be expanded upon in Skyrim save for a dev statement, in all the screenshots we see swords, great axes, and Bows



so....time will tell.

They've said there are going to be perks for axes to bleed, maces to ignore armor, swords causing critical damage, daggers being better for sneak attacks...
Yes those are dev statements... just like pretty much everything else, so I don't know what other kind of proof do you need...

I loved creating my character at the start of Oblivion, paying attention to which attributes would best support the skills I intended to develop. I also enjoyed creating multilple effect spells which would complement the weapons and armour I crafted to suit my character's role. Reading through this thread in it's entirity, I'm not sure whether there will be disappointment waiting for me on 11th November, or will I be as thrilled as I was the first time I saw Oblivion in full HD all those years ago? I really hope BGS don't follow Molineux down the Fable 3 route of overly simplified gameplay and standardised character development, to do so would be to lose the essence of Role Playing Games. I do however have faith in Bethesda, that they will stay true to The Elder Scrolls, and create the best possible Skyrim for us to while away many hundreds of blissful hours.

completely missed what I was saying in the post .

Why not justify it, just because u don't like it?? Get over it.

I don't think it's appropriate to say they have "removed" features. They would have first had to add them to Skyrim and then decide they needed to be cut in order to remove them. Instead, what's happening is each Elder Scrolls game has a different list of features. If anything, Skyrim looks to have a bigger list of more meaningful features than I've seen in any of the other ES games. That said, the biggest feature I want in Skyrim hasn't been in any of the recent ES games- a joinable Necromancer's faction, but at least you don't see me starting up threads saying how Skyrim will be the worst ES game of the bunch just because it doesn't have the one feature I really want. Instead I just try to find what aspects of the game I do like and focus on those, and that's what I'll do with Skyrim when it comes out :foodndrink: