It's a bit like the Hindu mythology surrounding Vishnu. He is the nicest god for the most part. He is called the god of preservation and always comes to humanity's aid and is the most seemingly benovelent of the three supreme gods. He has ten avatars. Nine of them save mankind . The tenth and final one rides on a horse, bringing destruction in his wake and shall bring about the end of mankind. The tenth aspect of Vishnu represent the eternity of time and how it brings an end to all things.

Says you. For me personally it's the other way around, though to be frank I don't think how this point would really add to your argument.

Perhaps it stems from my own personal belief, but I don't see how is it hard to accept that any particular deity to be well nigh impossible for us to comprehend with our conventional mainset.


My sentiments exactly on this matter. Or it could be the whole 'Rashomon Effect' is really at the center of this.

edit: for the record, I'm more inclined to see Alduin as merely an aspect of Akatosh that specifically representing its role as the "World Eater", which is to say, if Akatosh is an obese panda bear in actuality, then when people saw the rampaging big bad black dragon Alduin, they really just seen part of Akatosh's pooper, sorta.

My theory is that Akatosh left his physical form frozen under the dense rock and ice of Skyrim after creating the world, which left him with a physical form that he could assume in the mortal world. That's why we only see his avatar in Oblivion. He had to honour his deal with Alessia up until the Amulet of Kings was destroyed in Oblivion, at which time he resumed his physical form to perform his true intentions... To eat the world

I like the idea too. It gives a huge morality twist to the series, and nothing is as it seems anymore

Yep, especially if where the best option possible is essentially the least disastrous one available, and even then it's based on your interest/judgment and your perceptions of things.

Exactly I like the idea that you both saved the world, AND basically killed the chief diety of the nine divines in one swift action. Maybe another god or even a daedric prince (Dagon, maybe?) takes up Akatosh's duties to keep balance in the universe

Well perhaps not really killed him, but effectively rendering the principle of time itself gone kaput since the deity himself had to left it all alone at home for a longass while cuz he had to underwent a sphincter reassignment surgery. That's just how I tend to see it personally for the time being.

The funny thing is, is if Nords depict him as evil and Imperials depict him as good, then why are Nords even friendly with Imperials?

And why would the Nords help the Imperials overthrow the Aleid slavery

Because the Imperials aren't Elves. Pretty much that's the only reason.

The real difference between most religions isn't that Akatosh/Alduin/Auriel is good or evil. The key, underlining difference is whether Shezarr/Shor/Lorkhan is evil. Imperials don't see him as evil, Nords don't see him as evil, and Elves do.

Ok so i read a forum topic on the lore behind Skyrim a month back and this guys theory seemed pretty solid.

So Nirn was created when Lorkahn (whom most consider a daedra) tricked the Aedra into giving up part (or in some cases all) of themesleves into the creation of Mundus (Plane where Nirn lies). Some of the more powerful Aedra (The Nine Divines) realised what was happening before too much of themesleves were lost and were able to maintain some form of identity and power, however they were now tied to Nirn, unable to leave it and by some account unable to take direct influence or physical form in the world like the unbound Daedra can. Akatosh was the most powerful Aedra and saw the trickery first and by some accounts could have escaped, but instead of this he stamped his mark on the unstable Nirn and made time flow smoothly. Some of the Nine were mighty pissed with Lorkahn and decided to try and kill him for his trickery but found that if they did so they would also destroy the world as it was Lorkahns will and life by which Nirn was formed, so by destroying him they would destroy the world, and themeslves because they are bound to Nirn. So instead they tore out Lorkahns heart and hurled it into the earth, forever confining him to the mortal world restricting his influence and power, which created Red Mountain. So during Morrowind Lorkahns heart is destroyed, which may have released him from his earthly bonds and enabled him to regain his influence and his divinity, which were being sapped by the Tribunal. So now Lorkahn has some greater influence in the world and Akatosh is less then impressed.

So then Oblivion occurs with Dagon wanting revenge against the Septim bloodline, which in the process forces Martin to sacrafice himself and the Amulet of Kings to banish Dagon from Nirn. Now if Akatosh was so powerful maybe he could have done something to prevent the death of the septim bloodline, but his motives were to free himself from the Amulet of Kings and the agreement with Alessia, so he could get his revenge on against humanity (which is said to be most loved and perhaps created by Lorkahn). So by this stage Akatosh is getting pretty sick of the whole bound to Nirn thing and wants be be free, so one piece of lore states that he can only achieve this by somehow destroying Lorkahns anchor in the world without destroying Lorkahn himself. So how does one do this?

Well some lore states that the sentinent races were formed from the gods themesleves - Dragons: Akatosh and Humans were formed by the coupling of Lorkahn and his love (one of the Nine Divines) before his punishment. So in this sense Humans are Lorkahns anchor to Nirn so Akatosh is wanting to destory the human race and be able to release himself from Nirn, thereby removing smooth time from Mundas causing confusion and chaos (World Eater maybe...). So some say that the gods degenerated into mortal form, and considering akatosh was most powerful he may have been able to maintain physical form and longevity. So Akatosh may have earned his rep as world eater by trying to kill humanity many times before, but was saved by the Dragonborn warriors, who may be oversouls (reincarnation - like the Nerevar) of minor Aedra in allegience to Lorkahn or a direct influence by Lorkahn himself. So Alduin is Akatosh by this reasoning, coming to end humanity and time itself.

This info is second hand so sorry for any holes that may have cropped up...

Wait,so Akatosh is both The creator AND The destroyer of the world?Hmm I didnt know that.Extremely interesting...

He may be. The lore strongly indicates that he is, but it's also fairly ambiguous and subjective. The Nordic interpretation is Alduin, the world eater. Akatosh is the Imperial interpretation, which is that of a protector, creator, and patron. Whether they are literally one and the same, we won't know until we play Skyrim I imagine. (Even then they may leave it up to us to decide.) The lore strongly suggests it though in my opinion.

The point though is that in TES lore, gods can have more than one facet or aspect, as well as more than one form.

The Imperials are a good anology for Mundus. On one side of Mundus, you have Anu: order, stability, permanence. Then you have Padomay on the other side: chaos, fragility, and change. Mundus is just the gray in-between where Shor decided to create Nirn. The Imperials are the gray in-between place in Tamrielic religion--where mer see evil, like with Lorkhan, or Nords see good, like with Shor, Imperials see the neutral Shezzar. Imperial religion is just the peace-making bastardization of other religions that Alessia invented to please the Nords and mer.

Every race in Mundus seems to have their own religion(s), and, so far, we have no evidence to prove that they don't all exist. It's just hard to reconcile the idea of Alduin with the ideas of Akatosh or Auri-el when they seem so different.

I'm still sticking to my "aspect"-explanation. The Dragonborns are appointed by the gods (among them, Akatosh), to stop Alduin from destroying the mortal plane. Alduin and Akatosh are, or at least, I think they are, very similar to Sheogorath/Jyggalag, with both being merely an "aspect" of a greater whole. Perhaps the PC is the "representation" of Akatosh, the creator aspect, who has to stop the destroyer aspect from destroying the world.

In all likelihood, though, I'm horribly, horribly wrong.

Yes, so for everyone else this means, if you perform a dim reading of a very few texts in a very large body of them, fail to draw educated conclusions and then ignore the explanatory material that could help you, listen to Sleign.


And while we're on the topic of ignorance, we come across a related word which is ignore. Which is what you may choose to do in regard to the many references to contradictory, composite identity in the Elder Scrolls mythos.

From the top:

There is Time. There is a God of Time.

Both unquestionably exist. This is is certain because the various mortal races are descended from the et'ada, beings most of you know as the Nine Divines.

Elves and men have difference conceptions of who their most powerful and revered ancestor was. Mer see Auriel, Imperials see Akatosh, Nords see Alduin.

Because the process of creation was essentially a giant battle that took place in the absence of linear time, and involved more-or-less the death of the creator spirits and their re-animation as the gods we know today, and because these gods rely on mortal worship for power and identity, the different experiences of mortal cultures in the Dawn Era formed different divine 'personalities.' It may be helpful to think of Akatosh and Alduin as each being a God of Time, even though in reality there is simply one God of Time with multiple identities. They can all be active at the same time because there isn't an actual physical dragon sitting on a cloud the whole time.

Edit: And the Sheogorath/Jygallag dynamic was simply a curse switching personalities around in a Jekyll Hyde sort of way. The various identities of the Time God are all very authentic, constant states of being and it is perfectly natural, at least in the improbable, unstable realm that is Nirn.

And then there's the redguards who see both Akatosh and Shor as being evil, not to mention the same being.

No, it was Shezarr/Shor/Lorkhan who was the creator of the world, the Akatosh aspect of Akatosh is its protector (where as you should be wary about Aruiel and Alduin, as the former doesn't like Mundus and the latter is a world devourer). It was his idea and Magnus as the architect. The aedra either willingly or were tricked (perhaps both!) the aedra into cutting off pieces of themselves (or their whole self) into creating Mundus. Of the original Akatoshes, both are seen as being against the creation of Mundus. Read the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth, and if you're willing to read MK's material about the nordic version, there's http://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1160383-shor-son-of-shor/.

Yes, both are aspects of Time, as a thing eternal and as a thing that devours. You find that in a lot of real-world mythologies.

That's my attempt at being brief. People have explained it really well already.

EDIT: Although also, for the idea of a single diety with multiple aspects, look at either Hinduism or the VERY dark fantasy series The Prince of Nothing. It takes pretty much the same ideas of TES lore, of having multi-faceted gods. I recommend it anyways, if you have a strong stomach, but doubly so if you like TES metaphysics.

Is Zeus really Jupiter?



(Yes and No)

Well yah, but the big difference is that you can climb a mountain and see he's not up there tossing lightning and wenching. You can empirically prove that Time is embodied by a Dragon on Nirn.

And a good chain of logic as to how they are the same is that both are a physical manifestation of Time, looked at with different cultural sensibilities. Merish folk, who live for centuries, and Imperials who think of the culture over individual, would see Time as something on their side. Mortal men doomed to die would see it as an enemy. Also, it just doesn't make sense for a single thing to be embodied separately and at odds with itself. It just makes sense for, as often happens in TES metaphysical lore, for two mutually exclusive things to be true (Vivec was born a mortal yet has always existed as a god, same with Talos. Breaking logic is practically a prerequisite of joining the Divine Buddy Club these days). it's an unfortunate assumption often made about fantasy that its physics and beyond need to follow our rules. But the fact is, Nirn is manifestly the center of the Aurbis, in which the sky is a shifting veil with pinholes in it of varying size that lead to a world made of purest magic. So I don't see why people keep trying to bring earth-logic into it.