Spoilers ahead, ye mateys!

Listening to Mankar's final speech recently and reading some of the threads here has got me thinking about the nature of Aedra and Daedra, why the people of the Arena believe what they believe, where they go when they perish, and why necromancy and Daedra worship are such serious and ubiquitous problems.

It all boild down to this: Do you follow the mysterious gods who you cannot talk to or see, taking suggestions on how to live your life from scriptures and priests who claim to know what's right? Or do you serve the gods you can see and speak with and touch, who communicate with you directly?

Many people in our world do the former, but that's all we've got. Nirn provides some very compelling reasons to follow the Daedra, even though many of the Princes encourage their followers to do ill. The worshippers of the Nine claim that necromancy and Daedra worship are wrong. But it is only the worshippers making the claim. Daedra worshippers might have Molag Bal tell them to do any number of awful things... but it's Molag Bal telling them! That has to be both scary and motivating.

Also, we know that (at least some) dead Daedra worshippers go to their master's plane(t) when they die. I wouldn't call Mehrunes Dagon's or Sheogorath's realms "heaven" by any means, but to any given commoner it might seem like a better option than being reincarnated and recycled. I don't think we have any hard evidence on what happens to Daedra worshippers who die again in a Daedric realm, aside from the fact that their sould can be "put to rest" just like on Nirn.

Clearly, game-wise, the Nine are real enough to leave behind blessed artifacts of their own. Or at least their worshippers are. To my knowledge, no one of the Nine has ever appeared to anyone in Tamriel, physically or audibly, in-game.

In a world where the driving force is mythopoeia, I begin to wonder if the Nine aren't an endangered species. If belief makes real, Daedra worship could be on the fast-track to becoming the dominant religion.

What do you think? Was Mankar (mostly) right? Could the Oblivion war be considered a victory for the Daedra by virtue of scaring the s*** out of every living person in Tamriel and thereby propogating more fear and more worship? With the Emporer's holy bloodline gone, is it only a matter of time before the Altmer get their wish and the Arena collapses like so much Oblivion Gate, casting us all into the chaos of non-linear time once again?

This is not my whole answer, because I have not had enough time to think about it. However, I will say this for the time being: good thread, first off. Next, the Divines have physically manifested to people on Tamriel. In TES III, the Nerevarine meets several of the Divines in Avatar form while performing duties for the Imperial Cult. Additionally, it is an avatar of Talos that gives the Nerevarine the "lucky coin" on his way to Red Mountain.


___TWM

True. I don't remember meeting any avatars of the Divines during the Imperial Cult quests, but it's been a few years. I do remember the lucky coin. And I know that Pelinal is theoretically an avatar of Akatosh and Shezarr. And part of the prolix tower. And maybe some sort of time-traveling robot. Er... maybe it's best to leave Pelinal out of this.

But it seems, anyway, that running into an avatar of a Divine is far less likely than being able to communicate with a Daedric Prince.

As TWM properly remarked the Nine did have Avatars which however seemed to be mostly powerless (KOTN would agree).

However, the main reason the Nine are still worshiped so widely is the Empire. If the Empire falls the Nine fall so to speak, that's what I think. (I'm not saying that EVERYONE would switch to Daedric worship, but many would, and the less worship the Nine get, the less powerful they are).

The Nine aren't completely powerless when it comes to avatars. See: Akatosh's little fight with Mehrunes Dagon in Oblivion.

Does it, reallt?
How many commoners do you think communicate with Daedric Princes during their lifetime?

Remember that in Cyrodiil, the Nine have large churches to impress the people with. I mean, someone with such a building connected to them just have to be powerful!

"Without a champion, the gods are powerless to act." (The Prophet in "http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/kotn01.shtml")

Akatosh and the rest of the Divines need mortals to live on; they are called their "aspects". (See http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Altmeri)

Gods cannot know the "joy of mortals" without having a tool or instrument to get them there. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

Akatosh wanted to act, so he needed a mortal. That mortal was Martin.

Akatosh needed a tool or instrument. That tool or instrument was the Amulet of Kings.

The Dwemer made a god, linked to it via the Heart and went.

Akatosh had a mortal, linked to it via the "Heart's blood" in the Amulet of Kings (see http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml#8)
and went.

Now, going further in that logic.....Sheogorath is the Sithis-shaped hole created when the Heart was removed. Sheogorath linked up with a mortal via the hole and the Font of Madness and...well, you get the idea....

The Font of Madness? Similar to this perhaps.... "in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml#8)

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Well, if all you need to speak to Sheogorath is a head of lettuce and some yarn, I'd imagine just about anyone can scrounge that up. Plus, Daedra worshippers get to summon walking, talking representitives of their Princes (Dremora, Golden Saints). I still say that beats big buildings and priests.

Martin's sacrifice and the reminder it leaves behind is sure to garner more followers for the Nine, I'd think.

Awesome theory on Sheogorath, Word Merchant! I'd never thought about it that way.

You're living in the world of the aedra, the place that they sacrificed and mutilated themselves to stabilize. Your greatest relationship with the daedra is holding a spot on their playground.

So you are thanking the God's who created you through worship? Is it better to do this or have a chance to escape the Dreamsleave by swinging for awhile on the playground?

Other way around, we also created them.
If you listen to the elves, the aedra are both our parents and our children, or maybe more like our imaginary friends. These are close enough ties to account for the worship of Nirn's mortals I think.

I seriously doubt that Dagon scared everyone into daedra worship when the Dunmer of all people are showing interest in the Cyrodiilic religion after the Avatar of Akatosh gave Dagon the heave-ho.

If anything, I think he probably reminded everyone why Daedra are dangerous to mortals; they're mere toys to them, entertainment for when they're feeling bored or malicious. The aedra, on the other hand, have a vested interest in Nirn and its inhabitants. The daedra call them "inferior" out of frustration due to the Limnal Barrier the Aedra erected against them, making it harder for them to get to their toys; evidence of their self-centered and immature personalities.

The nine look like humans in their representations. Is that because most Elves, Khajiit and Argonians don't worship them or there is another reason? I guess they would remind other races to much of the Imperials and if you don't like the Empire you would reject them.

They made gods in their image.

That was my thought too. This implies in the fate of the Aedra being tied to the fate of the Empire itself.

Some of the Nine were originally mer-ish (or at least for mer). But the Marukhati Selectives pretty much erased that and made them more man-like. That's my understanding. The current eight are not the same eight, and yet they are. Talos is of course "new" and as always his old man-ish self.

The general et'Ada-ish part of the Eight is as it always was, Mercy is still Mercy, just like Madness it cannot be destroyed unless the world dies (because there's no mercy without mortals). However the god of Mercy got changed a bit overtime. Doesn't mean that Mercy did.

Sheogorath's dialogue at the summoning also mentions that he considers doing some unpleasant things to the player (I remember the "make you eat your own fingers" one) before deciding to give the artifact quest. For gameplay reasons, summoning Daedra Princes is relatively easy and safe for the player, but I get the impression it's meant to be highly dangerous. It's not like the favour of the Daedra is given away freely.

Which brings me to one thing I've always wondered about the Daedric quests - after the player has done the quest and got the Wabbajack, what happens if/when somebody else goes to the shrine to make an offering? It's not like Sheo has a Wabbajack-factory to churn them out on demand, and he only has one other legendary artifact that I recall (the Spear of Bitter Mercy); most Daedra only have a single artifact. So does the next person to the shrine just get turned away empty-handed if the artifact is already out in the world and still in use? Or does it cause the artifact to disappear from it's present bearer - maybe, but it seems a little "cheap"? Or are the artifact quests only given to "heroes" (who are uncommon enough that the problem rarely matters), while anyone else just gets an audience?

I would think that they only grant artifacts to certain champions. If a commoner summoned Sheo, he'd probably take advantage of their carelessness and make them go mad mad (I mean, come on. Look at the coven surrounding his shrine in Cyrodiil). Same with Clavicus Vile, the people that summon him strike some sort of deal with him, but most likely get the worse deal in the end (look at his coven, and also the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/famed_artifacts.shtml on the Masque most famous story). You could go on and on with stories about the lesser people trying to summon Daedra and getting the worse of the situation. Only blessed (by who? no one knows, but blessed nonetheless) can gain a semblance of respect from the Daedric Princes (if at all).


~TK.R

And how far will time go? How long shall the peace last? And so after the Frostfall, there shall be a widened hall of doors. They lead everywhere and nowhere.