It's been said that the female Aedra are fragments of the representation of Nir, the female principle in the cosmos... but what of the Daedra? Are the daedric princes who opt for a female avatar similarly related to Nir? What about the ones of indeterminate gender, like Mephala? (Botheiah seems to be leaning to the masculine side as of late, so does he count anymore?)

Daedra represent change, and if it suits them or their aspect they could switch genders.
Aedra created Nirn, Daedra did not, so you can draw connection between some Aedra and Nirn's female principle.

Muthsera,

Although some would say that gender has nothing to do with the Daedra, I would disagree. It has been shown that the Aedra have children. (See e.g. http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml) For example, Ruptga became the "Tall Papa" after siring so many times. The Daedra can procreate as well. Malacath kills his own son in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sebooksixteenaccordsofmadness.shtml#3. Molag Bal employs the Nerevarine to punish his daughter, Molag Grunda, for consorting with the atronach Nomeg Gwai. (See the http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/daedric_prince_mw.shtml#bal_vamp) In a fittingly sick way, Sheogorath and Relmyna Vernim have a "child" together called the Gatekeeper.

The list goes on and on. I would state, however, that gender is chosen by the Daedric Princes, having the reproductive capabilities of either at their pleasure (no pun intended).

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

In the case of Malacath you mentioned, the most likely explanation was that Malcath took a mortal form, did it with an Orc woman, and thus had a 100% mortal son that was still biologically his own.

I think "child" doesn't necessarily mean offspring. Rather, a Daedric prince can take a lesser Daedra (or mortal in some cases) and groom/raise them as a parent would do with a child.

I think that this is important to what the op mentions however. The first example that jumps to my mind is Azura. She is basically a mother to the Dunmer, and definitly fulfills a maternal role in both the Dunmer and Khajitt traditions. Combining this with the fact that she is often associated with the Mundus much more then many of the other Daedra, as well as the fact that she is the most feminine and "female" out of all of the princes, I think her significance in the metaphysical "female" collective is definite.

So, Lorkhan was a feminist?

Indeed. Don't forget that some Daedric Princes might not be Daedra at all. It might be possible that Sheogorath, Malacath and Meridia might be completely unrelated to Daedra. They ARE Daedric Princes, in the form of "Princes of Daedra and their Realms", but not as "one of Daedra". Or perhaps they are simply not "originally" Daedra, take the ritual of Sheogorath's ascention into account (there was a lot of mixing yourself with the Realm involved).

Problem is with definition of the word tho. If Daedra simply means an et'Ada who didn't help at creation then it's correct. Malacath (if we take the Boethiah story as truth) is still a Daedra, although his avatar is most probably a mortal. Same for Sheo, and who knows, perhaps also Meridia. Since they are a combination of sphere (that which defines them) and mortal, they couldn't participate at creation.

If it means something like a basic-species or somesuch then we're in for a lot of problems. Again, after SI this is too vague to conclude anything (should I mix Grummites into this too? )

I had to laugh at that, however I dont know Lorkhan's gender

Well, the Aedra have the same problem, don't they? Talos wasn't there for the creation of Nirn, and he still gets lumped together with the other Aedra in "The Nine" pantheon. I know they aren't often actually referred to as Aedra, but he still gets stuck in the same group as them.

Probably the easiest way to look at it is that there's three groups. The Nine (Aedra plus Talos), The Daedra (encompassing everybody else), and Lorkhan (the poor bastard who got his heart torn out, and gets a corner all to himself).

Thats a good way to think of it, without including Lorkhan with Aedra.

Then what about Y'ffre and such people?

Whenever the question of "sons and daughters" and immortal progeny comes up, I have to quote this bit of http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml:



Here's my take on the whole thing: Gods are universal powers, but they are slaves to their own natures. They are not free thinking spirits - they are concepts. The represent memes, if you will excuse the technobabble buzzword. They are ideas that propagate themselves throughout the universe. Every once in a while, there is a mutation, a daughter-idea that derives from the parent that is somehow inexplicably different. This ties in directly with the next couple of passages after the above quote:

I'd disagree for different reasons. I'd disagree for the same reason that Lorkhan has a heart. Because symbol precedes form or function, and not only is six an important, even crucial symbol, the et'ada were also the models upon which mortal man was built. Just because the nature of the daedra are protean doesn't mean they're sixless or amorphous. Their genders would presumably relate to (and be as fixed as) their natures. And wasn't it already explained that not a great deal separates the Aedra from the Daedra except location and attachments?

Many real life creation myths begin with the sixual interactions of the gods, which is probably foreign to many of our western sensibilities. We still think of six as carnal and vulgar, and God so far beyond human that he transcends sixual boundaries. Still, traditions exist that attempt to counter this, some of which explain the "face of the waters" as the female principle (understood as Binah, the womb, but still a facet of God himself), along with the Holy Ghost and, more obviously, the Holy Virgin mother.

To answer the topic, yes, there the female daedra may represent, or have qualities that represent, the female principle. Or the female principle is represented through them, since it's a principle, not a concrete thing. Those of indeterminate gender would transcend such classifications and boundaries, or take part in each, which is part of what makes Vehk so special.

In one real world mythology (I forget which one), there were seven genders, but each were feminine (not female) or masculine (not male). Culd the same apply here?

Perhaps the six of the Daedra are simply contructs that humour the six-bound mortals, albides?

The temporal myth is man, finite and static. Daedra are not this.

That's what everyone else thinks, so there's no need to "perhaps" it like it's something new.


Wait, what? You lost me there. What's static about man? You know the opposite of temporal is eternal, right? And how does this relate to gender? Cause to me, that looks like an out of context quote one might use to look smart. And my [censored] detector is ringing.

Temporal can be another word for either temporary or subject to time. A myth isn't. It endures. A myth about men will endure. So is man the myth that is temporal (subject to time or temporary) or is it a myth that man is temporal? I don't know. Maybe both. The Sermons are cryptic and I'd be [censored]ting you if I said I knew all the answers. But the fact that one instance of the phrase is in a paragraph dealing with slaying the Sharmhat and is immediately followed by the phrase "reach heaven by violence", I'd guess it's speaking of attaining eternity by being a hero, and thereby no longer being a temporal myth.

Anyway, that aside, you've heard my reasoning. On top of that, The http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anticipations.shtml also seems to put an emphasis on gender that would seem undue if they were talking about creatures that are essentially sixless.

Hyamentar might have been hinting at that "Daedric mortal jealousy" thing; maybe so, but I could be wrong.

Since you brought up the "reach heaven by violence" thing, I feel that, since V'vehk is such a cryptic, lying-truth-telling bastard, it's not a literal as you think: it could mean "reach heaven through forceful means." I could be wrong; I need to do more reading on the subject.

Resonance of both, that's my view. From above to below and back again.

Probably a billion unrealized genders lurking among the god-shadows too.

My friends,

I must say that I am enjoying this topic, mainly due to the thought that is being placed into each post. I would like to raise an issue, and please, give me your thoughts on this.

AstionM quoted from http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml. I would like to carry on with that line of thought insofar as it applies to the topic at hand, namely that of the "female principle".

Vehk's Teachings state that the Aedra are the "sons and daughters of Aetherius", while the masters of the voids between the gift-limb spokes of the Wheel are the "sons and daughters of Oblivion". The et'Ada had a choice on whether to be associated with Aetherius or Oblivion, according to the Teachings.

Tedders has stated that a god's (i.e., Aedra, Daedra or Tribunal member) preferred appearance, personality and sphere each should [be] considered on its own. (http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index.shtml#appearance)

Thus, the topic of this thread, the "female principle", could also be a choice as well. But what is this "female principle", and why am I reminded about some post or thread long ago stating that the shape of either Tamriel or Cyrodiil (I can't remember which one) was made to resemble reproductive organs?

The Egg. The World Egg. The Naming. The Sundering. The Keening (wailing, as in birthing pains). It permeates post-Daggerfall TES mythos.

I have yet to get any further with this line of thought, but I would be delighted to hear some feedback up to this point. Until then, I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

I SEMI-see the "female reproductive" thing you brought up, TWM, but it might be a mistake; Cyrodiil reminds me of a uterus a bit....

I, too, have to do a bit more thinking about that whole "female principle" thing. We're still referring to the Enantiomophic female principle right?

I can't remember where I read that, but I believe that it was on the lore forum, and true, it might be inapplicable to the topic at hand.

Does anyone remember who, what and when the reproductive Cyrodiil thing was mentioned? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Bueller? :shrug:

EDIT: I see Paws lurking. C'mon, man...help us out. :twirl:

That's not literal? And compared to what I said ("attaining eternity by being a hero")?


Probably http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=778839&view=findpost&p=11306417

I wouldn't get too literal about the female principle. It is land, woman, freedom. It is the Holy Grail that those very chaste and austere knights went after, rattling their lances like little boys playing with their toys. Maybe freedom, because those knights were repressed, conflicted by a church for which love is a duty and a romance tradition in which one's duty is to love. Maybe land because the female essence is the nurturing mother, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Bough for in order to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King and be reborn. Maybe woman because it's the essence of the female. Embracing it is like coming home, like drinking from a cup filled with compassion. This is what the gnostics who created the term thought of as the female principle.