Lets look at the All-American and Deathclaws *who currently have 15DT*
Against a deathclaw using AP ammo it would deal 22.8dmg a hit. (The AP arounds negate the 15DT and you multiply the dmg by 0.95)
The AER14 using regular ammo would deal 23. (36-13DT) as regular cells have -2DT

So the unique laser rifle is SUPERIOR damage wise using its regular ammunition, and without even accounting for having at twice the critical rate which would really adds up.[or counting laser commando] With this Machine the damage is easily comparable when you account for the faster rate of fire of the AER14 and critically hitting twice as often.



So basically you ignore some of the advantages of the weapon to support you argument, yeah thats really valid.

I just wish they'd fix the weight for energy ammo, it weighs way too much per shot in HC mode.

Energy weapons are fine, take a multiplas or a tri-beam and you can clean a whole area of Deathclaws ( like between Quarry Junction and Vault 19) in no time, something that you wouldn't do as fast with normal guns.
I guess the low HP of the energy weapons is the price for such power as for the ammo, correct me if I 'm wrong, didn't they also had way more weight than standard ammo in Fallout 2?
But I do think EW are flawed in some aspects, the low quantity of mods for them for example or, like some above poster said, the mismatch between Laser & Plasma weapons.
Still, even being flawed, I wouldn't trade them for regular guns.

Yes the did. They however did way more damage. In F2 MC fired from laser rifle did 3X damage of .223 fired from hunting rifle while weighting approximately 2X more. MC fired from plasma riffle did even more damage. Damagewise to weight, energy ammo was more efficient than normal ammo (you did more damage per pound of weight). Energy ammo in NV makes less damage than its normal counterpart while been much heavier.

It makes little sense even from physical point of view. Fusion energy is way more efficient than chemical energy like that of gunpowder. And I mean difference of 1:4000 or something similar.

Imo 1.20 setting is good. The problem now is ammo weight.

Consider who EW ammo is HP/AP hybrid, I don't see why they should have superior/equal DT bypass.

I do think that their disadvantages make the somewhat inferior to guns, in that a guns character wouldn't face the same problems while still doing similar damage. But they don't really have problems as of the last patch.
I just like things that go pew.


Well a guns character really doesn't need to rely on a particular advantage. You basically are saying you need to invest in Luck and critical improving perks for your EW character to work well.
A gun character can work pretty well with any build and though high strength and endurance are a plus in a melee/unarmed character it's not really essential (already a lot of HP available and strength's bonus to damage isn't all that much).
Should there be only one kind of built for energy weapons (critical focused). Wouldn't it be nice if you could go another route.

I left the first two alone and have the MC at -15DT as you do, and it's about right for me playing on Normal. I also do not run my Science high from the start, which helps since it means I cannot make MC ammo starting at, say, L6 or so and then steamroll the lower-level opposition found on the way to Vegas.

I've found that the -15DT is a bit much unless the opposition is wearing Metal Armor or better, however you can run into MA-wearers at a very low level at the police station south of Primm so it balances out to an extent. The base -2 suffices against Leather-type armors when the damage increases to some of the early weapons are taken into account, and while I would not go higher than -5 myself -7 is not really out of line. I am considering bumping up OC ammo a tad as I never use it; I might make it -7 or so instead of the current -5, which would give me a temporary solution against early Medium Armor wearers.

Don't forget that overcharged or max charged ammo not only lowers DT it also raises damage. AP ammo lowers DT but also damage. So improved EW ammo does equal or more damage at the end even if its DT effect is smaller. On the other hand improved EW ammo is much more expensive and tears your gun very fast.

I put together http://momaw.kikaimegami.com/fnv_ammo.png which demonstrates the effect of different ammunition types, shot from a hypothetical rifle and a hypothetical laser which both do 25 damage, against a scale of different Damage Thresholds ranging up to 20. It should be useful in this discussion.

For those unable to wrap their eyeballs around this: basically, armor piercing is very good at piercing armor. But Overcharge and Maxcharge have damage multipliers. OC will deliver the same, or more, damage that AP will, up to a DT of 12. Few enemies have more armor than this. And for those which do, MC ammo delivers same-or-greater damage up to a DT of 20 (Hell, MC ammo delivers almost as much damage as hollowpoints, and isn't nearly as affected by DT)

In addition to the raw damage output, two other points to consider:
* there are only three basic types of energy weapon ammunition which you can convert between without loss. So you can use everything you find. Converting between Guns ammunition requires casings and primers and is far more of a logistical problem.
* Overcharge and Max Charge work in any energy weapon. With Guns you are limited by the type of ammunition as to which weapons have alternative types available.

Momaw, can you up the damage to 35 and 60 to show how good OC/MC is compare to AP rounds at that damage range?

I guess, http://momaw.kikaimegami.com/fnv_ammo2.png

Why do energy weapons and guns do the same base damage when their health, ammo and scarcity are all different? Well, thanks anyway for that info. I know how much to mod them now.

Huh? I think you misunderstood the purpose of the table. It shows the relative effectiveness of different types of ammunition. It's not meant to show a breakdown of the performance of any particular weapon. The weapons are hypothetical.

Well after finishing the game on hardcoe with an energy build id have to say both energy builds and explosives builds are realy geared to casual game mode.

My energy weapon character is tearing stuff up. I never use VATS with any ranged weapon and I guess that might make a difference, but energy weapons crit like mad. I found that guns actually are less efficient at killing things...especially after picking up the YCS.

Pre-patch, my EW character was getting by on Normal, but now post-patch, I've been able to kick it up to Hard. Ash and goo piles still stick around. I've noticed that some do occasionally disappear, but not most. The only game effect I notice is longer loading times for my EW character. I'm not sure it's "pile" related, but it might be. Ammo is easier to find. Overall the patch did a good job.

Besides the gauss rifles, tesla cannons are still overall bad. The area of effect means squat in most cases, and definitely not worth the 40+ EC charges ~ 14 MF cells and doing less damage and more wear compared to the gauss rifle.

Better said, gauss rifles are probably just in a whole another league of overpowered.

Well the ash and goo piles staying I have this problem too is really bothersome it gets on my nerves just knowing they are there because of a glitch...

I would say running an EW character in NV is rather easier than in FO3. In FO3, few energy weapons are actually available at low levels and they are generally pretty poor. In NV it's possible to get a Recharger Rifle from Chet at the start of the game and that's good against Powder Gangers and low-level chaff. It's also possible with a little exploration to make up a fully-repaired laser pistol, which is really rather effective against the lower enemies, and to get a plasma rifle - all before leaving the Goodsprings area.

I have to say, though, that the Tesla Cannon is rather disappointing compared to the FO3 version.

All-in-all, EW lovers are rather well supplied in NV. In FO3 you get a unique laser rifle, a unique plasma rifle and a couple of unique pistols. In NV not only do you get the uniques but also the Gauss rifle and Tesla Cannon - both DLC weapons for FO3 - plus the Multiplas, which is a sort of poor-man's Metal Blaster, and the Laser RCW, which in good condition rips unarmoured enemies to pieces.

I'm having good fun after the patch with EW, but didn't notice a lot of the issues before the patch that others have spoken about. I don't notice any negative effects of ash piles or goo piles either before or after the latest patch.

I don't mind the amo consumption for the powerful weopons either, bulk energy amo is pefect for these hungry weopons and these hungry weopons (pew pew, beta tesla cannon & gaus riffles) do so much damage anyway using different amo doesn't make that much of a negative difference.

I haven't tried the gattling laser yet but I heard its only a fraction as good as it was in FO3.

The DT system makes it not very good since its whole purpose is delivering light hits at a high rate of fire. I bet it would be pretty hardcoe firing max charge ammo, but that would ridiculously expensive in ammo and repairs.

It is, in fact, quite deadly using MC rounds, although the high wear rate can be annoying at times. If you want to significantly alleviate the cost thereof make nice with the BoS; if you do, every time you enter their base there will be more energy ammo in a crate on the first level landing. It's a random spawn so you might not get ECPs, however the other types convert to multiple ECPs per round so you can still keep yourself in ammo.

It's makes up for it by being very accurate for such a fast firing weapon. It's speed and accuracy make getting criticals real easy, as long as you don't use it on high DT upper tier enemies (though bleedthrough makes even that not a total loss).

If you are using Pew Pew it's pretty obvious you aren't playing on HC mode. Pew Pew takes over a 1lb of ammo per shot.